Joshua Tree: stolen gear

hey, this ethic of leaving gear up in josh is 100 percent acceptable. yann, if you could please set up some more fixed lines, that would be perfectly ok!

my suggestions of routes for this (and date and times to do it) are:

-peoples are poodles too, nov 28 4:20 pm

-violaters will be trespassed, nov 29 3:45 pm

-tripple cross, nov 30 4:06 pm

-taught woman, nov 31 6:9 am

have a wonderful rest of your trip, and happy thanksgiving!

bon jour!

Mike Larsonwrote:

Local ethics are local ethics; don'but leaving ropes hanging on trade routes overnight is not how we do things in SoCal, and especially Joshua Tree. 

I accept the rules, whether I like them or not doesn’t matter, this isn’t my place. I still believe there are other ways, less harmful and more humane, to make things understood

A few minutes? You left it up all night. He had plenty of time. What if someone got to the wall before you? Do they have to wait for you? Or clean your stuff? 

You sound pretty entitled to act like Josh is your house and you can just leave your stuff anywhere. It's unfortunate you lost a lot of gear but this was stupid on your part 

I’m saying this because I assume the person came in the morning, before us. If they came at night to climb, then yes, they had plenty of time.

No, the person didn’t have to wait for me or clean anything. Just pulling the rope would have been enough — no need to pack it neatly the way they did.

And if they had waited for me, I would have apologized.

It’s easy and normal to lecture others and talk about ‘obvious rules’ and ethics once everything has already happened. Yes, it was stupid . But a sanction should be proportionate to the harm done.

If you think $500 is fair for leaving a top-rope up overnight, you are being harsh. 

Bill Lawrywrote:

I’m all for trying to return lost / left / bailed-on gear if not too much overhead for the looter … I mean finder.  ;)

That said, reading this thread, I have a new appreciation for how clean popular routes have tended to be, especially in national parks.  So that is a more positive side of this “ethic” that bit you, Yann.

You’re not the first or the last. I’ve cleaned a five piece anchor at JTree only to later learn that someone had left it so their spouse could come back and see it. I’ve also accidentally left - and so lost a brand new rope used on one climb at JTree. Called the rangers - not to report a “theft” - just to see if it had been turned in. I don’t mean for that to sound like I was cool with it. But the feelings faded over the next days and left me only determined to be more careful.

Of course, we’ll be more careful now. I would have been just as careful without the person taking the gear. If someone tells me ‘don’t do it it's not allowed here,’ then I don’t do it !

Daniel Shivelywrote:

My only comment consists of a simple question. Why did you leave your anchors and ropes fixed on these two popular climbs? I think that your answer will influence how this situation is perceived. 

Yann, quite a number of us are sorry that this happened. I’m wondering if you could please answer the question Daniel posed above?

terry, i think the answer may be terry-e-fying

Ahoy Yann! you’ve cried your river - now build a bridge and get over it….er walk the plank!

there is however still hope! my best booty day ever in Josh was finding 4 different cams. Maybe go on the hunt on a Monday morning to try and recoup some of the loss.

smooth sailing ye scallywag 

Terry Ewrote:

Yann, quite a number of us are sorry that this happened. I’m wondering if you could please answer the question Daniel posed above?

Sorry, I couldn’t reply earlier because I was limited in the number of messages I could send.

To answer Daniel:

On Monday we went to climb Clean and Jerk and Leave it to Beaver.

My girlfriend wanted to send C&J and I wanted to send Beaver. We both fell on our first attempt on these routes.

A group of buddy arrived and also climbed those routes, so we let them go ahead and waited for our turn.

My girlfriend managed to climb C&J right at dusk, but I didn’t have time to make a second attempt on Beaver because someone else was on it. He use my anchor.

The group left, we were the last ones there, and it was already dark. We said to ourselves: let’s leave the rope in C&J so we can have a warm-up lap on top-rope tomorrow before trying Beaver again.

We didn’t think it would bother anyone. During the day, the climber who used my anchor seemed happy not to have to go up and down to install his own.

Because it was dark, we felt too confident that no one would be inconvenienced—that no one would come to climb in the meantime.

I don’t know if our gear actually bothered someone or if it was just a matter of principle. I understand the principle, but I don’t understand how someone can feel entitled not to return equipment that is so expensive and that we rely on heavily while traveling.

ZT Gwrote:

Ahoy Yann! you’ve cried your river - now build a bridge and get over it….er walk the plank!

there is however still hope! my best booty day ever in Josh was finding 4 different cams. Maybe go on the hunt on a Monday morning to try and recoup some of the loss.

smooth sailing ye scallywag 

Yeah, we started today! On the approach, we found four crash pads under a boulder — can you believe that? What luck! Maybe the climbers forgot them? Or maybe they were stuck under the rock and nobody managed to pull them out? Either way, we grabbed them — a nice booty — in the purest leave-no-trace tradition!

Yann Gudefinwrote:

Sorry, I couldn’t reply earlier because I was limited in the number of messages I could send.

To answer Daniel:

On Monday we went to climb Clean and Jerk and Leave it to Beaver.

My girlfriend wanted to send C&J and I wanted to send Beaver. We both fell on our first attempt on these routes.

A group of buddy arrived and also climbed those routes, so we let them go ahead and waited for our turn.

My girlfriend managed to climb C&J right at dusk, but I didn’t have time to make a second attempt on Beaver because someone else was on it. He use my anchor.

The group left, we were the last ones there, and it was already dark. We said to ourselves: let’s leave the rope in C&J so we can have a warm-up lap on top-rope tomorrow before trying Beaver again.

We didn’t think it would bother anyone. During the day, the climber who used my anchor seemed happy not to have to go up and down to install his own.

Because it was dark, we felt too confident that no one would be inconvenienced—that no one would come to climb in the meantime.

I don’t know if our gear actually bothered someone or if it was just a matter of principle. I understand the principle, but I don’t understand how someone can feel entitled not to return equipment that is so expensive and that we rely on heavily while traveling.

Yeah, seems reasonable, but you never know who might come along and take your stuff, especially at popular spots. Live and learn. 

Yann Gudefinwrote:

Yeah, we started today! On the approach, we found four crash pads under a boulder — can you believe that? What luck! Maybe the climbers forgot them? Or maybe they were stuck under the rock and nobody managed to pull them out? Either way, we grabbed them — a nice booty — in the purest leave-no-trace tradition!

Ha ha. Well played. :)

Yann Gudefinwrote:

Yeah, we started today! On the approach, we found four crash pads under a boulder — can you believe that? What luck! Maybe the climbers forgot them? Or maybe they were stuck under the rock and nobody managed to pull them out? Either way, we grabbed them — a nice booty — in the purest leave-no-trace tradition!

Nice score! I bet you can sell those pads to raise some cash to replace your lost cams. When in Rome…lol

finders keepers

If you don't want people to take your gear, don't leave your gear behind.

It's really that simple.

Puffing up your chest on the internet might feel good, but it doesn't change the fact that you left gear behind for whatever reason. Unless it was a true emergency you couldn't have foreseen, just say bye-bye to your gear unless someone is nice enough to send it back, with you paying all costs plus some beer or a gift card for their favorite restaurant.

finders keepers

Yann Gudefinwrote:

Yeah, we started today! On the approach, we found four crash pads under a boulder — can you believe that? What luck! Maybe the climbers forgot them? Or maybe they were stuck under the rock and nobody managed to pull them out? Either way, we grabbed them — a nice booty — in the purest leave-no-trace tradition!

sell those puppies and treat yo self gurl #newtotes 

In Southern California there are a fair amount of straight up thieves. Derelict jerks who have minimal to no job and just hang around and do drugs and screw things up for the rest of us. There is no local ethic one way or another. People do what they want and take the risks they care to take. I never leave my gear anywhere. If I stash gear you can bet it is only because it is five miles away and well hidden in a cave or crevice. Popular areas a quarter mile from a public parking lot is not a good idea to leave anything sitting out in plain view. This is the hard truth everyone is tip toeing around. You got ripped off and it is over. That is the sad truth. Josh is cool but the town holds a few losers for sure. Going forward it is a good practice to carry in and carry out. Sorry you got bitten.

I may be a simple boulderer but it sounded like the cap’n was trying to be a good mate!

I want to thank the people who suggested ideas, and those who may have talked about it around them.

As I said in the first post of the thread, there’s no need to explain good practices to me — the disappearance of the gear is enough to understand what is acceptable and what isn’t. As I already mentioned, the same message would have come across just as clearly if the gear had been left at the base.

You need to be able to acknowledge your mistakes, but you also need to be able to acknowledge your wrong actions.
It’s hypocritical not to distinguish between gear that is stuck, abandoned, forgotten, or gear that was clumsily left in preparation.

I am not thanking the people who replied “serves you right” or “what did you think would happen.” I imagine these are the same people who would press on a broken leg just to make sure it hurts, explaining that the person got what they deserved. Very educational!

As for the people saying it’s pointless to keep writing or continuing the discussion, I simply suggest they stop reading when they think it's boring.

Sorry if my use of American English hasn’t always been correct or smooth

Take care of you 

Bye

Yann Gudefinwrote:

I want to thank the people who suggested ideas, and those who may have talked about it around them.

As I said in the first post of the thread, there’s no need to explain good practices to me — the disappearance of the gear is enough to understand what is acceptable and what isn’t. As I already mentioned, the same message would have come across just as clearly if the gear had been left at the base.

You need to be able to acknowledge your mistakes, but you also need to be able to acknowledge your wrong actions.
It’s hypocritical not to distinguish between gear that is stuck, abandoned, forgotten, or gear that was clumsily left in preparation.

I am not thanking the people who replied “serves you right” or “what did you think would happen.” I imagine these are the same people who would press on a broken leg just to make sure it hurts, explaining that the person got what they deserved. Very educational!

As for the people saying it’s pointless to keep writing or continuing the discussion, I simply suggest they stop reading when they think it's boring.

Sorry if my use of American English hasn’t always been correct or smooth

Take care of you 

Bye

Cette épisode me fait honte d'être un grimpeur américaine. 

Pas parce que il y a des voleurs, mais parce que il y a des grimpeurs qui les soutiennent. 

J'espère que la reste de votre voyage soit plus agréable.