Help with Beginner Ice Climbing Gear/Strategies

I'm very ice-curious and have been doing as much as I can to learn about ice climbing and the like. I would really like to try and get into the sport, but I also don't want to buy a bunch of expensive gear if I don't even know if I'll really like it (I'm also in college and dead broke). So, I had a few questions about various pieces of gear and approaching starting that I was hoping I could get some answers/feedback on.

First, it seems like the most pressing thing I'd need is boots, as if necessary I can rent or borrow tools and crampons but boots are hard to get right. Does anyone have any advice finding really cheap Ice boots? It seems that Koflachs are the cheapest proper ice boot I could get, as even if they are wildly outdated I'm sure they'll be fine for me to either go once and figure out I don't like it or for extended use toproping WI2-4 in the case I do start going ice climbing. As far as sizing with them, what should I expect? I wear around a 12 street, 28.5 ski boots, 44 in scarpa instinct vs, 43-43.5 in laspo solutions, and a 46 in new TC pros (super comfy fit with a little heel room but my toes touch the front). If there are other boots you recommend, what is sizing for those like in relation to street or other brands?

Past that, my next questions are about tools and crampons. Is there any you would recommend? I want to get into ice climbing way more than I want to get into mountaineering, so should I focus on getting a fully technical tool that I can grow into, or is something like a quark or even less technical fine for starting out? Is there somewhere specific I should look for deals, or any specific tools (like old models that might pop up for cheap) that I should be on the lookout for? 

From my preliminary reading, it seems like starting out on monos is the way to go for crampons. Are there any crampons that are good enough for getting started that I can usually find a deal on, or older models that will be just fine? My current understanding is that anything rigid with steel fronts will be good for technical ice.

Finally, does anyone have any other info about getting into ice climbing that I should know, or any resources to point me towards (e.g. except for experience, how does one begin to learn about ice types/how it forms/what ice is good/bad? Is there a good guidebook on the subject? online resources?)? I am in the seattle area and know that the PNW is home to some solid ice, but I'm not sure where to look to find most of it or the communities of climbers that utilize it. wastateice.com doesn't seem to exist anymore, but I'm sure there are good guidebooks. I know the mountaineers does some guiding and classes and the like but I unfortunately don't have the money for it. How feasible is it to find someone experienced who's willing to take me out toproping? Is there somewhere I should look for that, or is it a rare occurrence because of the hassle needed to take someone new out? I think in my ideal world I find someone experienced (and probably cool as hell because ice climbers, especially the old ones, seem really rad) who can teach me a thing or two and take me out toproping in exchange for beer and gas money and hauling their heavy pack and the like.

I know I asked a lot of unrelated questions, but if anyone has any info for me i'd be stoked to learn! ice climbing is an awesome sport and I'm really hoping to be able to engage with it safely and accessibly. Thanks for all of the help.

Just a couple personal opinions, although others will follow with more/better advice.
Firstly, your TC Pros are waaay too big if you wear a 44 Instinct. But I digress...
IMO, owning boots is key, if you have a way to borrow tools and crampons. You can also rent boots to see what you like. Plastic boots are cheap, with drawbacks. A cheapskate friend bought some old Koflachs off fleabay that looked nice and unused but the aged plastic disintegrated on his first trip walking to the crag. Another bought some former rental plastic boots that held up fine, but uncomfortable. One cheap option is used Baruntses for under $200, and they'll be fine but heavy.  I'd size at street or + ½, depending on model. FYI don't wear super thick socks as they don't keep your feet warm.
You can get crampons and tools cheap, again if you're patient and diligent.  A guy on MP has been trying for two years to sell some dinosaur BD crampons for $50. They'd be fine if you want fine.
You'll have to see if you're comfortable on monos. Some don't feel secure with them and should be using dual point config. My first two seasons were on dual setup, but then switched to mono point a few years ago and love it. 
Don't be fooled into buying old leashed tools. The guys that used them to climb harder than us were tougher than us. 
Not sure WA is the ice mecca like CO, MT or NH, so you may have to work harder to get to good WI ice. You're using MP right?  Search for routes and then post in the partners forum.
And watch Will Gadd and OR ice videos and read Freedom of the Hills if you don't have cash for trips and courses. 

The best thing you could do is to take a trip to the Ouray Ice Park.  

You can rent all the gear you need at Ouray Mountian Sports, and can toprope a dozen routes in a couple of days.  

Safest and easiest intro to ice climbing.  

Welcome to the obsession that is ice climbing!  Here are my suggestions:

• Book:  Will Gadd, Ice & Mixed Climbing (I think maybe a brand new edition came out this month)
• Boots:  Yeah, boots are kind of a big thing.  Chances are, if you stick with ice climbing you're going to have many pairs over the years.  I would argue that fit is the most important thing (you can deal with some chilly toes with Lenz socks or something, if that's a necessary trade-off, but fighting with a sloppy fit and heel lift will make the climbing miserable.  Remember that new boots will tend to "baff out," at least somewhat (though that's limited for plastic boots, which are really archaic at this point).  In addition to the possibility of renting, you may also connect with someone who can lend you a pair.
• Crampons:  I've become a big advocate of mono points, including for pure novices.  I understand the "stability" argument of dual points, but in my experience, duals are less stable.  Any twisting action (which is more common for beginners) will tend to cam out your points, which doesn't happen with monos.  I use and love Darts, as do many other climbers, which give you the option of changing the point configuration if you want to play around with that.  Lynxes are another similar option but they have issues with the secondary point geometry, so for the sake of a few bucks' difference in price, I'd avoid them.
• Mentors/buddies:  Awesome when you can find some.  Ice climbing is a surprisingly niche sport, even in areas where it's relatively popular, and finding people who are consistently available to climb has been a challenge for me.  That said, that could say more about me than the climbing community.  Also, beware the tendency as a novice to defer to the judgment and techniques of your more experienced mentor/buddy.  If your mentor is a really old guy/gal, he or she may not have updated their techniques and gear to include modern best/safe practices (anchor building, third hand on rappel, etc.).  And, even if you are the mentee, you're still a member of a team with your life on the line, and you need to be comfortable with everything you're undertaking.

Have fun out there!

This is a great book too
https://us.blueice.com/products/the-art-of-ice-climbing?_pos=1&_sid=d1ac3a599&_ss=r

I have been on and off Monos and duals for 44 years.  I am on Monos/ Blade runners now but for the previous decade I was mostly on duals and before that it was monos with the early 2000s Grivel rambo Comps being about the best of the monos.  Either will work just fine so go with what is on sale.   I really liked my Cassin alpinist pros in dual  configuration.  I led some pretty sick thin ice in those rigs.  You can actually cam tiny icicles between your dual front points if you are delicate enough.  buy new crampons. Used poons are usually worn out. look for a close out sale. Check places like Sierra trading post etc.   Tools you may also find a close out or really good sale if you search hard enough. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

 buy new crampons. Used poons are usually worn out.

Really good point!  Used crampons often have metal fatigue and/or points that have been sharpened down to nothing.

Will Gadd's youtube series on ice techniques was by far my best free resource when I was a new ice climber. Also for what it's worth, I've only climbed on Bladerunners and never felt a need for dual point or true monos, but also haven't climbed on anything else so maybe I just don't know what I'm missing.

Blade runners are great but All the modern crampons now are probably pretty darn good compared to what I started on.  Get something new and on sale. 

Kai Larsonwrote:

The best thing you could do is to take a trip to the Ouray Ice Park.  

You can rent all the gear you need at Ouray Mountian Sports, and can toprope a dozen routes in a couple of days.  

Safest and easiest intro to ice climbing.  

I’ve been looking to head over there sometime this December-January to get started ice climbing, what are the best cheap options for sleeping there?

Branan Andreuwrote:

I’ve been looking to head over there sometime this December-January to get started ice climbing, what are the best cheap options for sleeping there?

I don't know of anything that's super cheap.

You may want to look at staying in Ridgeway.  Might save you a few dollars compared with Ouray, and you're closer to Tacos del Gnar.  

Milan, you are right, boots first. If you are in the Seattle area you are in a good spot for finding gear. Significantly better than the SF Bay Area. Although at least one of the good small shops has closed. Basic "B3" type boots with lips on both heel and toe for the heel lever and toe bail of the crampons. Sportiva Nepal, Scarpa Mont Blanc, the Lowa equivalent. Go try them on. Spend time on that. Don't let a salesperson sell you something too big telling you the space can be filled up with thicker footbeds or some other shit. They don't have to be as long as hiking boots. Hiking boots bend a lot when you are hiking, having the effect of the boot getting shorter and/or your foot getting longer. Ice climbing boots don't bend much, so you only need a little space in front of your toes. The boots should lace up snug all around and on top of the back half of your foot. But not tight. The forward sides of the boot should be right there at the sides of your feet. There should be space between the top of the boot and the top of your toes and the joints at the ball of your foot. Wear somewhat thick wool socks that have low profile toe seams. But not real thick. Once you figure out what model(s) boot fits in what size, you can look for sale or used. If you have to go plastic,  that's ok, but not great. Boots are the last place to go cheap. 

Crampons are easy. Yes, monopoints are good, but vertical oriented duals are absolutely fine. If you really need to pinch pennies, crampons are the best place. Any STEEL 12 point mountaineering crampon will be ok, horizontal front points and all. Used in good condition can be found all over the place, sometimes under $50. Charlet Moser S12's, Stubai Tyrol's and similar. If you end up with plastic boots you could even get strap on old Salewa's for $25-30, with straps! They are one of the best all round crampons ever made. Most Scottish Grade V's were put up with those. Oh yeah, Footfangs are cheap, because they are heavy, but they climb good!

I'll save tools for later. Good luck!

What eric said.  Most folks that are good enough to trust your life with ice climbing will have a spare set of tools that they will loan you for the day but you have to have boots that fit perfectly and are not too tight... or too loose... 

Branan Andreuwrote:

I’ve been looking to head over there sometime this December-January to get started ice climbing, what are the best cheap options for sleeping there?

Stay in Montrose. Cheapest by far and the 45m drive down is easy. Plenty of places for $50-70 a night there. Ouray/Ridgway will be a lot more expensive. If you don't have a car, they have a shuttle that runs to and from Ouray (but it's obviously easier with a car).

Milan, buy gear off MP. There's always new and barely used ice gear being sold on here for bargain prices. Except boots, because like everyone else has already said, if you get the boot sizing wrong your ice climbing life is going to be miserable. Never buy a boot you haven't tried on in the same model/size first. (You can get around this with used boots on MP by going to a shop and trying on the boots you're looking to buy.) 

> how does one begin to learn about ice types/how it forms/what ice is good/bad?

The experienced folks you're with during your first year or two will take care of the assessment. You'll learn as you go, but this isn't anything you should try/expect to learn much about up front.

Mike Larsonwrote:

Stay in Montrose. Cheapest by far and the 45m drive down is easy. Plenty of places for $50-70 a night there. Ouray/Ridgway will be a lot more expensive. If you don't have a car, they have a shuttle that runs to and from Ouray (but it's obviously easier with a car).

Milan, buy gear off MP. There's always new and barely used ice gear being sold on here for bargain prices. Except boots, because like everyone else has already said, if you get the boot sizing wrong your ice climbing life is going to be miserable. Never buy a boot you haven't tried on in the same model/size first. (You can get around this with used boots on MP by going to a shop and trying on the boots you're looking to buy.) 

I had no idea about the shuttle there, that’s great! Definitely a lot cheaper there from what I’m seeing so far.

Milan Damjanacwrote:

I am in the seattle area and know that the PNW is home to some solid ice, but I'm not sure where to look to find most of it or the communities of climbers that utilize it. wastateice.com doesn't seem to exist anymore, but I'm sure there are good guidebooks.

Unfortunately, the PNW is not a great place to build ice climbing chops; the water ice here is fickle due to the temperate climate and approaches and/or winter access can be tough. We do have some great alpine ice on mt hood and mt baker but those are not places to learn. Any ice climbing festival you can get to is a great place to demo gear and take classes, but that may not be in your budget. Ouray ice park is great for learning as other already mentioned. Also it is “only” a 10 hour drive from Seattle to Canmore which is a much better place to learn (consistent ice and many top-ropable venues 

Thanks everyone for responding! The info is all super helpful, I'm just going to follow up on some of it in case there is more juice to be squeezed here, and you guys can tell me if my plans are hopelessly misguided. Was hoping to follow up sooner but it's finals week and i couldn't muster the strength to write all this, but I did read and think about everyone's responses.

I've watched all the will gadd (and many of the OR) youtube videos and am working through a copy of freedom of the hills. I'll see if I can snag Gadd's book when funding is a little more available.

As far as my TC pros, other than some heel room, my toes are snug upfront and I don't have any other problems with them which is kind of weird but works well enough. I also am a pretty shit trad climber and have some foot problems so I will defend my choice but you are right they are quite large.

I will go to a gear shop and try on the nepals, mont blancs, baruntses, and any other boots they have in that weight range. TBH boots really confuse me, it seems like theres like a few different versions of each class of boot from each company and I havent found good info to distinguish them (nepal cube, evo, extreme, etc? and the g techs are in the same warmth class just an upgrade?). How different are the lasts between years of models? I imagine a few years prior version of these boots will be much cheaper, but i doubt that I'll be able to try them on at a shop. if anyone knows any other models I should keep an eye out for lmk, or good resources for learning more ab boots. The decathalon/simond mountaineering boots look kind of rad but can't get in us and im mostly just fascinated by them. does anyone know what their fit is like in relation to boots that i can try on and maybe i can snag a used pair for mega cheap? I have narrowish feet, narrow heels, med instep and am quite low volume.

I have a pair of excellent rom hybrid ski boots (scarpa 4 quattro pro, ~1600g 130+ flex) but when people recommend climbing in ski boots it's always a much lighter and more flexible touring boot so i imagine it wouldnt work. If someone knows why and could explain i'd appreciate it because I don't quite get why high flex would matter if the walk mode is good. Is it lateral flex that's the issue?

Eric, thanks for the pointers - i grew up in the san jose and can't imagine many high quality mountaineering shops there, lol. The south bay doesnt even really have quality ski shops, so I can't imagine it as a mountaineering gear hotspot.

I'll keep an eye out for crampon deals. do i need fully automatic crampons or do semis work as well, and do they work with b3 boots? For the easy types of ice climbing I'd be doing do I need full steel or can I get away with aluminum rears? I am going to need ski mountaineering crampons so i wonder if i can just kill two birds with one stone. I assume steel linking bar is a must even if hybrid is ok. I also have a 45% off code for petzl until the end of the year so if investing in a pair of darts would be a good move i can maybe make that work and just sit on them till i need them? Same goes for nomics i guess because i can probably flip them for what i got them for if I don't like them/dont get into ice, but it's a big upfront cost.

I really wanted to go to an ice fest and have some partners that are going to bozeman but I doubt i can afford it with rentals, housing, plane tickets/gas, and entry fees. Maybe I save up for next year and crash at a college buddy's place for ouray, but I'm prioritizing saving up for a car dirtbagmobile to prepare for the end of next year when I graduate.

I am really really tempted to just drive somewhere with ice once i get all the gear, maybe I can just find someone from seattle whos willing to do that. Thanks for letting me know about canmore, mitch - I didn't know it was that "close", and if i was gonna give a weekend up for it i could catch a ski day at revy otw. are there any other good ice spots within a few hours drive of seattle? Bozeman is 10 hours no traffic as well it seems.

Thanks for dealing with all my questions, yall, I'm really excited about ice climbing and hope to get into it soon enough. might take a while but with all this wisdom I reckon I'll be pumping on on wi2- in the next half decade or so!

@Milan, what size boots are you? Seems like you're in the Seattle area, correct? If so, I've got a pair of La Sportiva Trango Tower Extremes sized 44 collecting dust in my basement that have a ton of life left in them, if you're interested. I'd sell them to you on the cheap as I mostly want to get rid of clutter. DM if you want.

Milan Damjanacwrote:

I will go to a gear shop and try on the nepals, mont blancs, baruntses, and any other boots they have in that weight range. TBH boots really confuse me, it seems like theres like a few different versions of each class of boot from each company and I havent found good info to distinguish them (nepal cube, evo, extreme, etc? and the g techs are in the same warmth class just an upgrade?).

Simple overview of the classes of boots appropriate for ice climbing:

Leather (single) boots: Nepal, Mont Blanc, Alpine Expert

Supergaiter single boots: Phantom Tech, G5, G-Tech, Alpine Ice

Double boots (for high altitude mountaineering, not for typical ice climbing): Baruntse (discontinued), Phantom 6000, G2, G-Summit (kinda)

How different are the lasts between years of models? I imagine a few years prior version of these boots will be much cheaper, but i doubt that I'll be able to try them on at a shop.

Lasts will generally be the same between different years of the same model.  They might even be the same between different models with similar names from the same brand, but that's a bit harder.  For example, you can assume that all the different variations of the Nepals will fit similarly, and Phantom Techs are mostly similar but have varied a little bit.

You can generally buy used boots.  I think I've purchased every single ice boot I've ever owned used from places like the for sale forum here on MP and local gear exchange groups.  As a new climber, I'd definitely look for used boots, or rent boots for your first few times out.  There are shops in Hyalite and Ouray that will rent you a whole package (boots, crampons, axes), and you might also be able to rent them in Seattle (you definitely can in Portland).

 if anyone knows any other models I should keep an eye out for lmk, or good resources for learning more ab boots.

https://www.alpineascents.com/blog/how-to-choose-your-boots/

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/climbing/best-mountaineering-boot

I have a pair of excellent rom hybrid ski boots (scarpa 4 quattro pro, ~1600g 130+ flex) but when people recommend climbing in ski boots it's always a much lighter and more flexible touring boot so i imagine it wouldnt work. If someone knows why and could explain i'd appreciate it because I don't quite get why high flex would matter if the walk mode is good. Is it lateral flex that's the issue?

The walk mode and ROM on a 4-Quattro is not good compared to a lightweight ski touring boot or a mountaineering boot.  A performance skiing fit may not be great for ice climbing, so viability depends on how your boots fit your feet.

You can ice climb in touring boots, but it will be more difficult and less fun than in a proper mountaineering boot.  For someone just starting out, it's going to be easiest and most enjoyable with the right footwear.

I'll keep an eye out for crampon deals. do i need fully automatic crampons or do semis work as well, and do they work with b3 boots? For the easy types of ice climbing I'd be doing do I need full steel or can I get away with aluminum rears? I am going to need ski mountaineering crampons so i wonder if i can just kill two birds with one stone. I assume steel linking bar is a must even if hybrid is ok. I also have a 45% off code for petzl until the end of the year so if investing in a pair of darts would be a good move i can maybe make that work and just sit on them till i need them?

You can definitely buy used crampons.  As long as they are in half decent shape, they will be fine.  You're just going to be toproping for a while anyway, so a broken crampon won't be the end of the world (and is unlikely to happen in any case).

You can ice climb with a fully auto or semi-auto crampon.  Fully auto is easier to get a good tight fit, and is what you will see on 95% of people's feet in Ouray, Hyalite, etc.

Aluminum heels are fine for ice climbing, you don't really use the heels for steep ice anyway.  There is a significant durability tradeoff with aluminum crampons, so unless your objectives are super weight sensitive, all steel is more bombproof.

Darts are a pretty specialized technical crampon.  They are great (until they break) but not necessarily the most all-purpose.  Something like a Lynx will cover more activities, and for easier ice a more traditional crampons like a Vasak is completely fine.

Same goes for nomics i guess because i can probably flip them for what i got them for if I don't like them/dont get into ice, but it's a big upfront cost.

Just rent tools, or borrow them from whoever you're going with that knows what they are doing.  Tools are a huge upfront cost, and you don't know which tools you prefer yet.

I am really really tempted to just drive somewhere with ice once i get all the gear, maybe I can just find someone from seattle whos willing to do that. Thanks for letting me know about canmore, mitch - I didn't know it was that "close", and if i was gonna give a weekend up for it i could catch a ski day at revy otw. are there any other good ice spots within a few hours drive of seattle? Bozeman is 10 hours no traffic as well it seems.

There is nowhere with good, reliable, safe, easy, and accessible ice within a few hours drive from Seattle (excluding serac cragging in summer).  You just need to make a trip to Ouray, Hyalite, Canmore, NH, etc.

Note that Bozeman/Hyalite has very limited toprope access, so whoever takes you there will need to be a competent ice leader in order to get the ropes up on 90% of the routes.  Somewhere like Ouray has much better TR access, which is why it is so popular with ice climbers, especially newer ice climbers.  This is a big reason to attend an ice fest clinic, as somebody else will be responsible for getting the ropes in place AND somebody will be there to give you critical feedback on movement skills.

Kai Larsonwrote:

I don't know of anything that's super cheap.

You may want to look at staying in Ridgeway.  Might save you a few dollars compared with Ouray, and you're closer to Tacos del Gnar.  

also closer to the Orvis hot springs on the way back at the end of the day.  highlight of our last trip was being in the larger slightly cooler spring (one you can hang out in for hours vs the "lobster pot") and my wife saying "we gonna do this or not" and proceeds to throw her bikini at me....