North Carolina Trad listing laziness.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but there are some serious issues with the mountan project sorting system (at least in NC) . The searches keep suggesting sport routes that are absolutely not sport bolted routes. If it's a trad route that is 120 ft and it has two bolts, it should not be listed as sport. Big trad routes like this are not possible or safe with just a sport rack, and are a big waste of time for anyone trying to make plans and search for sport routes in North Carolina. Definitley wasted some of my time and money. Has anyone else run into this? 

(Buying a trad gear soon)

To the people making listings. Maybe stop worrying about being a purist And just label it Trad and note that it has a bolt or two for those that dont like runnouts?

Can you post some examples of the misleading routes you're talking about?

Unfortunately the distinction between "trad bolted" and "sport" are lost on most people. Generally if a route is listed as sport and has the number of bolts and a safety rating attached to it, I don't see the problem - that's pretty much the same information that might be in a guidebook. Of course, if those things aren't listed then it might lead someone unfamiliar with NC climbing to drive out expecting a modern sport crag. You should suggest edits to routes to make the database more useful if key information is missing. 

Edit: If the routes you're talking about are the ones on your to-do list, then I would say that there's enough information on MP to make it clear that these are not tightly sport-bolted routes. Part of learning about an area is finding out that safety, difficulty, and runouts are relative and vary wildly depending on the local history and context. I agree that Rico's Suave could probably do with a trad designation if the supplemental rack is recommended in the guidebook.  Feel free to add more information if you think it's needed!

Welcome to climbing in North Carolina, where you need a rack to climb just about any sport route if you don't want to run it out lol

Mountain Project routes are open source; if you think a route is missing valuable information, submit an edit to be reviewed by the area admins. 

William, I’m sorry for your frustration, but I would say this is more just the ethic of climbing in NC than anything wrong with Mtn Proj. Idk your experience, but it is generally useful to assume that any route in NC will be traditional or runout compared to other areas, because most routes have been put up ground-up unless it is specifically designated as a sport climbing area. The only (rap bolted) sport climbing areas I can think of in NC would be The Dump, Pilot mtn, Crowders mtn, Middle Hawksbill, Raven Rock and maybe Cathey’s Creek or Melrose, though even at these areas it is common to place a few pieces of natural protection. Feel free to message me if you are looking for a particular type of route in a certain grade range. 

Laziness is a funny way to describe sandbagging. 

This is not unique to North Carolina.

In general sport routes are put in top down, or through some other form of cheating, while trad route are always put in ground up. It’s possible to have a traditional route, put in ground up, that is well bolted. There are also sport routes that have run out sections.

The number of bolts, or other fixed pro, and the frequency of their placements really has no bearing on whether if it’s a trad or sport route. Normally a bolted route put in ground up will have less fixed pro, bolts, than a sport route put in top down simply because it’s by far much, much more difficult than bolting on rappel.

The problem with MP route descriptions is if a pitch is bolted people list them as “sport” routes when in fact they are not. 

Jesse Nealwrote:

Welcome to climbing in North Carolina, where you need a rack to climb just about any sport route if you don't want to run it out lol

This has been my experience as well. 

North Carolina requires a good head for the runouts. Most of the climbs at Stone Mountain, for example, are sparsely bolted and also won’t take much pro, but you could climb them fairly safely with an incredibly light rack, draws, and by listening to the granitodiorite—and have a time you’ll never forget. I personally love the sparse bolting and the old school ethic of this state, it keeps you humble and in awe at the audacity and vision of the first ascensionists. 

Yeah, I brought this topic up a little while ago and the trolls came out and told me that mountain project was perfect. But many people feel that it would be useful to have a category for climbs that are bolt protected, but are not sport climbs. They are traditionally bolted routes,  the bolts are often 30 or more feet apart, and they are often bolted on the lead so that the bolts don't even necessarily protect the crux. And you have to do a lot of careful reading to figure it out. For example I was looking at a route that was listed as a sport climb and it had five bolts in 180 feet. So you couldn't even lower off with a single rope. I for one personally think this would be a separate category for this. Yes, you can figure it out if you read carefully and you'll definitely figure it out if you get up to a cliff and see how far apart the bolts are.

I don't think Mountain Project allows you to list a route as mixed(correct me if I am wrong), this leaves it up to the poster to decide to list the route as either sport or trad. Mixed routes are common in NC, even in predominantly sport areas.

Andrew Jacksonwrote:

I don't think Mountain Project allows you to list a route as mixed(correct me if I am wrong), this leaves it up to the poster to decide to list the route as either sport or trad. Mixed routes are common in NC, even in predominantly sport areas.

In the past, i too brought up this lack of "mixed" designation when posting new routes.  Can't remember the exact response from moderators or whoever runs the site......but recall they felt the way the database was structured was adequate, while i felt like it lacked the ability to capture these kinds of nuances in the basic route description, and could be improved.

Jesse Nealwrote:

Welcome to climbing in North Carolina, where you need a rack to climb just about any sport route if you don't want to run it out lol

Cool! 

This and other comments above suggest I might really really like North Carolina climbing. I never considered going there until reading this thread, and I am looking for places I've never been and routes I've never done. 

Eric Craigwrote:

Cool! 

This and other comments above suggest I might really really like North Carolina climbing. I never considered going there until reading this thread, and I am looking for places I've never been and routes I've never done. 

Come on out! The mountains here are beautiful and great climbing can be found year round.

It's definitely not just North Carolina.  I think the people defending MP are technically correct that the existing system has enough flexibility, but the community can't agree on whether such routes are "trad" or "sport PG13/R".  You have people saying "it can't be trad because it was rap-bolted", and you have other people saying "if it needs a safety rating it's not sport".