5 piece spinning in hole

Anyone have methods to avoid spinning fixe 5 piece bolts? 

I've had it happen with both SS and Zinc (Used for exploratory missions). But it happens more often with the 1/2" zinc. 

They are a pain to remove since the cone and bolt are spinning together. Sometimes funking the bolt will work, but it doesn't always so I move on to taking the bolt out which is a total pain. Upon removal I've noticed the cone is not able to freely spin around the bolt and I have to use tools to get the cone off. 

My theory is there is not enough friction between the sleeve/cone/rock to overcome the friction in the threads, but I am not sure why the threads would have so much friction? Or perhaps the rock gave in underneath? But that seems unlikely to me as the rock is relatively strong, drilling felt normal, and the hammer test is always fine. 

I've had this happen a few times and I am not sure if I am doing something wrong, or if it is just part of the game. 

Make sure your blue dust caps are still on and that you're thoroughly brushing and blowing the hole, and most importantly the amount of pre-engagement is very important.  You want the cone slightly engaged already but not so much that the sleeve is getting caught on the edge of the hole.  Squeezing the sleeve behind the cone and holding back on it a bit as you hammer the bolt in can help with making the sleeve fit until the edges are in the hole.  If this doesn't make sense have someone with experience show you. It would also be relevant what type of rock you're drilling in,  and if the drill bit you're using is new or worn.  

Using a prybar/end of a claw hammer behind the hanger, or your PAS attached to the hanger pulling out as you tighten can sometimes salvage a bolt that is already spinning.  

Everything said above plus one question: what’s the condition of the blue plastic collar once you’ve gotten the bolt out? (or even before if you’ve noticed) I’ve found they really like to get crushed during the install if you’re not careful and if once you remove the bolt, the collar is destroyed, that’s probably your issue. 

• In my experience a sharp bit makes a difference with the 5 piece. If I get a hole in a spot of softer rock and my bolt spins, I usually apply a ridiculous amount of force in various directions by stepping in an aider and/or clipping in direct to it and pushing down/out really hard with my body while I try to tighten. Sometimes you have to loosen them, tap them to unseat the cone, and try again. It takes some random actions but that's what's worked for me. They're a finicky thing 

The most important single step to avoid spinners with 5-piece is as you tap it in, STOP tapping just before or as it first becomes flush. NEVER hit the bolt once flush - in fact, I try to stop tapping the bolt in when it's about 0.5mm or 1mm from flush, then it will snug up as you tighten it. If you hit the bolt once it's already flush, all that energy goes to breaking rock out around the cone. There's a perfect example on a Fixe Hardware video where Kevin is placing a 5-piece in a concrete wall, and he hits the bolt 17 times once flush, and then has to deal with a spinner. Bolts are not pitons - you tap them in, and never hit them again once they're fully in (or just shy of fully in).

Greg Barneswrote:

The most important single step to avoid spinners with 5-piece is as you tap it in, STOP tapping just before or as it first becomes flush. NEVER hit the bolt once flush - in fact, I try to stop tapping the bolt in when it's about 0.5mm or 1mm from flush, then it will snug up as you tighten it. If you hit the bolt once it's already flush, all that energy goes to breaking rock out around the cone. There's a perfect example on a Fixe Hardware video where Kevin is placing a 5-piece in a concrete wall, and he hits the bolt 17 times once flush, and then has to deal with a spinner. Bolts are not pitons - you tap them in, and never hit them again once they're fully in (or just shy of fully in).

Way BITD, Mike White taught me this. He taught me that it's a nice idea to drill the hole an extra 1/4" or so deeper to remove the possibility you can set it too deep. 

tenesmuswrote:

Way BITD, Mike White taught me this. He taught me that it's a nice idea to drill the hole an extra 1/4" or so deeper to remove the possibility you can set it too deep. 

Extra hole depth is something else entirely - it won't help with this problem. What it does is help give space for sand/rock bits which are scraped off as you pound the bolt in. No need at all for extra depth in granite or any good rock, just medium to lower quality sandstone or other softer stone.

Check your drill bit.  Worn bits over smush the cone.

Greg Barneswrote:

If you hit the bolt once it's already flush, all that energy goes to breaking rock out around the cone.

This doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't all the force just go into the wall through the hanger?

I feel like there is a different explanation for why your technique helps.

I used to think hitting the bolt again after the initial tightening would help to "seat" the hanger to the rock better, (to conform it flat to the rock surface) I could usually get another quarter turn or more, but what Greg said, don't do this! The energy is transferred through the bolt and into the rock at the back of the hole, which could fracture it, leaving your hole compromised. Im my mind, the quality of the hole is everything. 

David James, lots of great suggestions above. 5-Piece bolts are finicky but also about the best things for sandstone.

1. You don't say how long your bolts are. One thing I learned is that standard 4"/6" bits are too short for the 4 3/4" x 1/2" 5-piece bolts. I've upsized to 6"/8" or longer bits and I'm back at 100% success rate again. Batteries and drills are light and cheap, there's no downside to drilling holes too deep. Clean the hole well. I used to just use a blow tube (works best for the debris at the end of the hole), now I also use a brush (which removes stuff from the sides of the hole) 

2. Be sure to remove the little blue stickers. 

3. As explained (really well!) above by DrRockso RRG, be sure to screw the cone on such that the sleeve is engaged, barely, on top of the cone before you start tapping the bolt into the hole. In transit, 5-piece bolts always want to loosen up and fall apart so; be sure the parts are assembled correctly immediately before you place the bolt.

4. As you start hammering the bolt, hold on to it to prevent vibration and loosening of the 5 pieces.

5. As mentioned above by Greg Barnes, as soon as the hanger is flush with the rock, stop.

6. For desert locations, try to keep the bolts clean before they get placed. Sand in the threads (in the bottom of your bolt bag?) will stop them working correctly.   

I had one (out of hundreds) fail on me during install.

The sleeve had become bent in in one spot. This bent sleeve caught the edge of the cone so it could not expand the sleeve. 

Like others have said, check to see that the cone goes into the sleeve then position the cone so it is slightly engaged into the sleeve.

I installed 8 of these for the first time yesterday.  All fixe powers 3/8x3.5 inch sleeve bolts in what I am guessing is either granite or dark quartzite.  I brushed and blew out the holes as well as I could. They all tightened to about 18-20 lb-ft, which is the recommended torque, then just spun without further tightening.  Is this normal or is it a sign of a problem?  

Robert Millerwrote:

I installed 8 of these for the first time yesterday.  All fixe powers 3/8x3.5 inch sleeve bolts in what I am guessing is either granite or dark quartzite.  I brushed and blew out the holes as well as I could. They all tightened to about 18-20 lb-ft, which is the recommended torque, then just spun without further tightening.  Is this normal or is it a sign of a problem?  

Likely a problem.  Can or did you measure your drill bit diameter?  Might be a bit small?  I know when I've used well-worn drill bits that I've got spinners with those bolts.

It's a brand new 3/8 SDS plus bit.  It they got to the recommended torque, are they good to go?

Robert Millerwrote:

It's a brand new 3/8 SDS plus bit.  It they got to the recommended torque, are they good to go?

I've whipped on spinners that hit the recommended torque and had them pull out a few mm as rock in the back of the hole breaks.

I replaced with a glue-in for obvious reasons. 

Another few tips for these I was given that has seemed to help is: 

make sure the cone is engaged slightly before hammering in

pinch the sleeve as you hammer it in (pull outwards as you hammer it) 

Don't hit it with the hammer once the hanger is flush with the rock. Allegedly this can cause the back of the hole to break where the cone is and cause spinners.

Could be snake oil, but since doing all that I haven't had a spinner so who knows.

Edit : I scrolled up a few comments and saw where I learned this all from. Ha. Go read that post, it is great advice. 

Robert Millerwrote:

I installed 8 of these for the first time yesterday.  All fixe powers 3/8x3.5 inch sleeve bolts in what I am guessing is either granite or dark quartzite.  I brushed and blew out the holes as well as I could. They all tightened to about 18-20 lb-ft, which is the recommended torque, then just spun without further tightening.  Is this normal or is it a sign of a problem?  

All 8 were spinners? Yikes. I wonder if the holes were not deep enough? What length drill bit?

First time I used the 1/2" by 4 3/4" sleeve bolts, I used the standard 6" bit (which in theory gives adequate length) and all I got was spinners. Quickly moved to 8" bit (these are hard to find) and began drilling an inch deeper then needed and no spinners since then. 

I drilled at least a 1/2 inch deeper than the bolt length.  I probably did hammer the bolts after they were flush since I've never heard that tip before.  I'll try all these recommendations and see what happens.  

Stainless or plated?

All stainless. I tried the recommendations above and got much better results.  Thanks for the help!

I have struggled with 5-peice sleeve bolts (1/2") in the past and learned a few things that i have learned to help prevent spinners:

1) Fresh drill bits - Most importantly, as others have said, you need fresh drill bits. The hole has to be PERFECT for the 1/2" sleeve bolts to work. a worn drill bit is a sure fire wire to get a spinner. Also, make sure the hole is perfectly straight.

2) Clean holes / bolts - Second most important thing- keep everything as clean as possible. a little dust in your hole or on the bolts can mess everything up. Clean the hole aggressively; i recommend a pump tube in lieu of a blow tube, since blowing will send saliva into the hole and mix with the dust / make it harder to remove. Also make sure the bolts are clean - keep them in a ziplock bag prior to installation and don't leave them on your harness when drilling the hole. Another little tip - be sure to wallow out the end of the hole slightly so that when you first hammer the cone in, it doesn't chip the rock and send dust into the hole. If it does - simply take it out, clean the hole and the bolt again, and continue. 

3) Keep the cone from jamming into the threads - Start with the cone screwed up against the sleeve without actually pushing it out. While installing, if the bolt is not going in smoothly, loosen the bolt slightly occasionally by hand (and then tighten it back to the original position). If it won't loosen, use a wrench to loosen before continuing to drive it in. If the cone gets jammed into the threads from hammering too hard, you will get a spinner.

Then there's the obvious things like - make sure you have the right diameter drill bit and your hole is plenty deep (at least 1/2" deeper than the bolt, I usually go more). A drill bit that is fractions of a millimeter too big or too small will not work.