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New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #39
Old lady H wrote: Hi Helen, I appreciate your reply and I’ll ask you a question in response. Are ethics and social norms the result of discussions in which opinions are shared until hopefully a mutually beneficial conclusion is reached? I tend to support this idea but realize there are philosophical challenges and debates about this topic. I don’t think your or anyone’s opinion is irrelevant or I wouldn’t use my time and energy asking for it. You‘re referring to Kilian Jornet. Some days he spent 14 hours on his bike while traveling between Co and Ca and Wa. He is a generational talent and this is quite the display of human endurance. Li Hu, I understand your point, but will admit to being a bit disappointed if this is the reality of forums. To me, forums are a kind of town square or pub where ideas and opinions can be easily shared. Maybe I feel this way because I lead a relatively isolated mountain existence removed from the convenient opportunity to converse with random and unique people. Hi Alan, thanks for the reply, I was hoping for your insight. Yeah, ethics can be hard to define, but I think like pornography, we know them when we see them. I agree that ethics do seem to be imposed but believe through discussion and debate a legitimate conclusion can be found. I realize how ethics seem to be subjective, but also believe that as humans we can organize ideas to foster respect, efficiency, and peaceful cooperation. On another tangent, I recently watched a short documentary about the Yosemite Stoneman Meadow incident and was pretty shocked by the response of law enforcement and the park service. Crazy times, were you around Yosemite when that happened? Lori, I would love to hear your thoughts. The debate I’m involved in is mainly about whether guides should facilitate climbs like the father who (most likely) forced his 8 year old son to jug up El Cap to set a “record”. Without the guides who led and fixed the Nose for this ascent it would not have been possible. It’s my position that for guides to facilitate a crying 8 year old to be compelled to jug El Cap by his father is unethical behavior. If you want to look into this further before commenting, google Joe and Sam Baker/Evermore and you should find more info. Alan, that’s cool that you had a 2 month hitch in the valley, I’ve only managed about a month continuously. I’m glad the rangers seemed cool when you were there, the video that I watched may have blown it out of proportion a bit, but the scene with the horses charging through the crowd looked pretty extreme. P.S. Since I’m out of replies here today, I’ll reply here to any further comments directed at me on this post. |
Daniel Shively wrote: Forums are rarely negotiations, they are places you can rant or otherwise express an opinion. If you disagree with someone, so be it. I sometimes just see it as a waste of time as well. I’ll pop in and out as it suits me. This thread is great because of Lori et al. It’s fun to rant, get engaged, participate, empathise and exit whenever you like. Marc |
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MM two cushions and two life vests. My partner was young and strong so probly didn't think he needed one. Isa is stubborn and knows she doesn't need one 😞 seems like my entire position in life is to try and keep her alive 🙏 Thing is that both of them are likely better swimmers without a pdf than I am with one but neither of them seem to recognize that they could be more effective in an emergency if they were actually wearing the fckn thing. |
Old lady H wrote: A second adolescence is how I see it, I have thought about returning to work just to stay current… but nooooo. I don’t want to! I keep thinking about bringing home a dog, or even a “starter dog” (cat) but it might demand something of me. I’m having a hard time just keeping my house plants alive. So right now it’s playtime, might as well go with it. I’m sure you know, and we’ve talked about this, after many years of too much caretaking it does take longer than expected to recover and craft a new life. You’re doing great! Keep crafting! —— I’ve been doing a deep dive into my own health problems and it’s such a venture… the first doctor I saw said “cut that thing out”. I just don’t think that way. I’m more patient and always eager to learn. So… I have a great “team”, an Herbalist, Acupuncturist, Naturopath and Gynecologist. There’s big progress and I feel like I will have learned so much. I think I’ll be climbing again soon, with a better understanding of self-care. I have hiked to some favorite spots here just to wander and sniff. We have whole mountains of white sage. We have every kind of plant. What I wouldn’t give to find a local herbalist who could teach me to identify the local remedies and tonics. I’m sure he/she will show up. —— Daniel, I’m Not sure what the ethical question is about guiding. Of course I have thoughts on this. |
Daniel Shively wrote: Daniel, while it would probably be 'nice', if 'ethics' ( hard to define) and social norms resulted from the 'give and take' of rational discussion, I don't believe that historically that has been the case--usually, it seems they are 'imposed' ( either directly or indirectly)by various 'elites'. From what I have observed, this is as true for climbing as it is for other aspects of the human experience. Edit to add: Daniel, while I was in the Valley in 1970, it was in the fall, so several months after Stoneman's. While I'm sure it was discussed, I have no specific memories of any such discussions and it definitely wasn't a major topic. We were all pretty much focused on climbing!!!! I do know that I had a fairly extended (c2 months) stay in Camp 4 that season, with no hassles from the Rangers, so it seemed pretty mellow on that regard. |
Lori Milas wrote: Sorry, I must have missed it - what is the doctor recommending be cut out? |
Old lady H wrote: I never mentally grew past 15, so I'm not really having a mid-life crisis it's more of the same. Decided on a whim to get my ear pierced the other week. Then decided to get the other one pierced too. Now I've made an appt for another piercing in the first (left) ear. My wife just sighs and says 'You're like a 15 year old girl' which is valid.... |
Carl Schneider wrote: Carl, this explains a lot! But of course we knew that about you. What about tattoos… have we got some of those? —- As I was making coffee this morning, I wondered does anyone grind their own beans? To the broader point what are your coffee making rituals if any? Tony and I almost lead separate lives. He puts the Dunkin’ Donuts grounds in his Mr. Coffee the night before , runs the water through all the plastic tubing in the morning, dumps some kind of artificial creamer to the brim — and that’s not negotiable. I’ve tried to explain about phthalates and micro plastics and he does not care. In fact, I think it just inspires him to do more. On my side of the kitchen, I use a ceramic coffee cup with Pour over, fresh boiled spring water, and organic French beans. It takes just about as long as Tony’s Mr. coffee. I found my favorite creamer – – I think I’ve tried them all but this one is the keeper for the last 10 years. Once in a while, I would use pure cream and sugar. I have a grinder, but I have never consistently ground my beans. But this week I read something about how we really should, something about oxidation yada yada and I thought well maybe I could do that. On impulse, I recently bought an espresso machine and there it sits— I just realized I don’t know how to use it. It’s definitely not one of those expensive barista types, but I think I could get a cup of espresso out of it if I would just read the manual. —- The discussion about cadmium and lead is one I know well, add to that arsenic and mercury. I would definitely throw in Phthalates… because if you ever take a urine or blood test for these endocrine disruptors it will convince you to pay attention. I think for a lot of people this whole discussion is overwhelming, but I don’t think it needs to be. I was shocked to see the various consumer reports studies on lead and cadmium levels in chocolate, and similar reports by As You Sew and consumer labs – – some of the best organic chocolate is downright toxic. After going through some major angst over this, I just made the decision to eat less chocolate and choose from the acceptable options in the consumer reports lists. I also found a great dark chocolate that is third-party tested so you can eat to your hearts content. That’s really a one and done. Mercury is a bad guy, and I have personally been hit hard by it so I just make it a point to limit consumption of fish and only use Safe Catch tuna, and never albacore unless I’m stuck with it for a single meal. My favorite fish, orange roughy, is simply out of the question forevermore. But it’s the arsenic that is so hard to avoid and that has made me the angriest over the years because it’s in Rice products primarily and often at very high levels. It soaks up from ground water. So a lot of the Pea/Rice protein powders are loaded with arsenic. Rice milk. Organic rice products are frequently the highest in arsenic . So once you know, just throttle back on too much rice. There’s some simple cooking directions that reduce it. Just know it and move on. I think it’s important to know what’s going on and make some prudent decisions – – but I hardly think about it in daily life and I sure don’t feel deprived. |
Carl Schneider wrote: just keep it to the ears Carl, your body parts will thank you. Your wife probably will too. Dan, to your questions about guiding ethics. Should guides have to follow certain codes? Everest guides will take almost anyone with enough money, pay even more and hire Sherpas to literally pull you up on a sled. Some guides will take over whole areas for a day for enough money. Around here we have Otter Cliffs on the ocean, it's typically 75% commercial traffic all summer, cash is king. You know what they say about the main difference between a large pizza and a guide right? Nick, people are funny about PFDs. I hate wearing them when it's full summer temps out but I also know that when it's cold and windy hypothermia comes quick (especially my skinny ass)so I always go with one. |
Alan Rubin wrote: Ahhhh! Alan! You spent two months in Camp 4 in 1970??? Man, I want to be Al when I grow up and become young again! What did you climb??? So curious to hear about that experience! Lori: We have a lovely hand made semi-automatic Italian Espresso machine and grind our own beans. Just love being able to change up the variables. I'll still get my dishwater Dunkin Donuts Iced Mocha on occasion but we've been spoiled with this machine for about 15 years now and just love it. Dan: I have no idea what thread or "ethical" questions you are speaking about, and that's probably a good thing. Maybe post a link to the thread and we can venture over there and join in if we want but if it is that contentious, maybe leave it there??? Carl my Dude! Pierce it yourself man! Save some money! ;) I'm supposed to be helping teach four Marines how to tie in and top rope this afternoon at the West Point wall. They've never climbed before so it should be great! I'm sure that they will be climbing harder than me before the two hours are up! And I'm STILL waiting for my car! Five weeks on this Friday the auto shop will have had it! They said it might POSSIBLY be finished tomorrow! Man, I hope so!!! Have a great day everyone!   |
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Buck, While I did spend 2 months in Yosemite in 1970, and roughly 2 more in '72 ( as well as a few shorter stays over the years), I have precious little in the way of 'accomplishments' to show for all that time---I have rarely found Valley climbing (with the exception of The Apron) to be particularly 'comfortable' for me, especially the 'technicalities' of wall climbing ( back then, mostly aid for most)--love the Meadows, though!!! As far as your upcoming 'climbing date' with the Marines, I recall going into a small climbing gym in San Diego, while touring colleges with our daughter. I was alone and looking for partners, and ending up joining with a bunch of very muscular, crew-cut ( and much younger!!!) guys--don't know if Marines or regular Navy, but think Marines. They had climbed before and were VERY strong, but clearly didn't have an understanding that feet played a role in the activity!!!! I admit that I was quite 'chuffed' that I outlasted them!!!! |
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Carl. I am also a little kid trapped in an ageing body... |
 Good morning. Thanks for everyone’s reply to my question about ethics and if guides should take anything into consideration when facilitating climbs. Lori, I replied to you about three posts above your’s from yesterday. I hope that you saw my reply and will reply at some point. My wife and I are users of plant based protein supplements and the latest info has us thinking about our continued use of these products. In some ways though, we also wonder if everything we eat received the same scrutiny, if anything would actually come out clean. Interesting to think about though. MM, I actually used the example of the 8000 meter scene but that was pretty much ignored. It also seems that at least in that thread, the belief is that guides dominating routes with clients and parties inconveniencing everyone else with their incompetence is perfectly ethical and actually a positive experience. My takeaway from my discussion there is that many seem to believe that there is no point to ethics and merely discussing them is elitist, hateful, and rooted in fear. Lol What is the difference between a large pizza and a guide? I don’t know but looking forward to the punchline. Buck Rogers, the thread is called “climbing video with 1.5m views in 2 days. It’s in General Discussion, and while a bit rambling, contains some pretty amusing content. I’d enjoy your take on the topic if you feel like chiming in. Apogee, you’re always quick with a sarcastic reply and often kind of on point but if you want to expand on the topic or offer your opinion, that would be cool too. i hope everyone is having a great morning. edit to reply to Lori: the food/supplement discussion is a worthy one. Denise and I focus a lot of our time staying as fit and healthy as possible (she is a personal trainer) and fueling our bodies is a big part of that. It’s frustrating when “certified” products are found to have less than optimum ingredients. Oh well, we will keep looking for our best options. As far as the guide/ethics go, I know that great guides do exist and simply hope that the good ones set a good example and raise questions and have conversations when ethical questions arise. I we want climbing to remain a positive experience it’s important to be open to a continuing conversation about ethics. edit to reply to Buck: I apologize if you’re offended and want you to know I’m not trying to be edgy or troll. I simply thought that this was a somewhat interesting subject and was looking for a diverse set of opinions to help me understand how climbing ethics are formed and if ethics are important to consider or not. In this thread the conversations usually remain more civil, unlike the dumpster fire in the other thread. That’s why I thought I might find a more productive conversation here. I’m not trying to drag any bullshit here. edit to reply to Guy: I tend to agree with the ideas that you posted. In a nutshell it’s my position that not all motivations that climbers have for hiring a guide are necessarily ethical or a positive for climbing in general. I stated that I thought guides should consider this and maybe not facilitate some climbs. Then I was basically dogpiled and the shitshow took off from there. I asked for some opinions on the topic here because I respect most of the people in this thread and hoped for some insight. Also, in here (50+), most topics, no matter how controversial seem to be able to be discussed in a calm and civil way. Sorry if I’m out of line. edit to reply to Daniel Joder and apogee: while I appreciate the levity, please refrain from further mockery of the guiding, it could be triggering for some people and I humbly ask for this entire unfortunate example of a minefield/dumpster fire topic to be ignored and forgotten. edit to reply to dragons: Hi, thanks for sharing your thoughts and I too believe in maintaining an ethical code outside of what is legal. Don’t bother heading back to that thread, I doubt anything of value was mentioned since you lost interest. I wish that I could have let it go sooner but sometimes I lack discipline and my ego takes ahold of me. I do think conversations about ethics and how we arrive at them are valuable and interesting. It’s too bad the topic seems so contentious. Have a great evening. P.S. It’s cool to hear of your determined training to be ready for the Henderson Ridge. |
Alan Rubin wrote: Still curious about the routes! I have zero "Delusions of Grandeur" about myself and climbing there. I really hope to get out there in two-to-five years and do the Royal Arches, Snake Dike, and maybe the South Face of WC? If I am really fit, maybe give Lurking Fear a go? (but that is probably just dreaming). I've never climbed there before! |
Buck Rogers wrote: Buck, the valley is incredible and the climbing is fantastic. I bet your fitness is more than adequate for the routes you have listed. I have climbed Lurking Fear and it’s pretty straightforward as far as the aid climbing goes. It’s one of the longer El Cap approaches and the upper pitches and top out might be a bit tedious if you are hauling. I would honestly just recommend jumping on the Nose if you want to climb the Capitan. Overall it would probably take about the same time and effort. Tangerine Trip is a good introduction to El Cap too. |
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Having spent a lot of years (urg) in climbing forums like these, I’ve learned to recognize landmine topics (ethics, in this case) that tend to result in shit splattering all over myself, and avoid them. I’ve also learned how to make responses shorter and more succinct, a characteristic that works throughout all forms of communication. Surprised the coffee comment hasn’t spurred more fanatical posts yet. Only medium-level fanaticism from me in that regard…grind my own (decaf) beans and a French press. No doubt there are many here that go waaaay deeper down that rabbit hole. |
apogee wrote: I’ve lurked around since the early days (2000’s) of supertopo (tradmanclimbs, hi Nck lol) so I’m not completely new to this. I do recognize the “landmine” topics too, I guess I just don’t realize why they’re so controversial and triggering to some people. I get your point about succinct and concise communication, but sometimes find it a challenge to convey complex ideas with minimal words. As far as coffee goes, for me it’s black and strong and only consumed before noon. ****as usual, I’ve quickly reached my 3 post daily limit so I will reply to further comments directed to me in my first post of the day containing the photo of sunrise. |
Daniel Shively wrote: It’s always hard to know when to dive into a topic and when to leave it alone. I think you want to find a moderate approach to food and environmental toxins in general. But it is true that the plant based proteins are higher in heavy metals. I get a little daily email from Arnold Schwarzenegger’s team where he tried to put some perspective on this… I haven’t referenced his sources so can’t verify, but it was to say that some of these warning levels and are set way too conservatively. It’s just not as bad as it sounds! But more and more I use whey, sometimes hemp protein, pumpkin protein, but I don’t sweat it if what’s handy is a plant-based protein now and then. With regards to guiding, I probably have nothing to add to the situation you described and I did read through the thread in this forum. What I would say is probably overboard in praise of a true mentor/teacher like Bob Gaines who I guess technically falls under the heading of “guide”. It’s always a bit touchy for me to write about because I am well aware that having a long-term coach/guide is a luxury very few could afford. But I can say that this time with Bob has been a kind of collaboration that I deeply respect and am grateful for. It didn’t take me long to see that a 65–70 year-old novice climber had no business messing around on these rocks here in J Tree. (probably some of the sport climbing areas I’ve been to would have been easier to wing it). So I always felt that Bob took me “from crayons to perfume”— over months then years laid a foundation with a lot of support, but also boundaries. There have been a lot of no’s, fwiw, to some of my overly ambitious ideas. Just not safe, or not feasible for me. There’s no way you could pay Bob to put you in harms way. He and I disagree on this much – – even under his vigilant care. I still think I could hurt myself. Hell, I could trip over my own feet. But so far in over five years that has not happened. I have climbed with other guides, and I have climbed with friends, but if I want to do something really hard and really challenging, I would choose Bob every time. If there’s a way to teach me how to climb something hard, he will do it, and he’ll stand by me as long as I want to keep trying. So that is my version of “a guide”. No injuries, no terrible days out because of amateur guiding, no choosing routes or destinations that are bound to be miserable,in the heat or freezing cold – – just knowing climbing and how to make it deeply rewarding. |
Lori Milas wrote: Absolutely! When I drink coffee, it loses less “nutrients” that way. However, I’m into my Yerba Mate phase at the moment. Either is healthy overall. |
Daniel Shively wrote: Taking a page out of Apogee's book, I'll keep it short. I looked at that thread, read through it, regretted doing so immediately and then prayed to the Gods that it doesn't spill over here. Now I feel like I need a shower (or at least a good climb!).  |
