Near miss, absent-mindedness

bryanswrote:

In about 2 minutes (the time it took you to post this) you can view the OP's impressive tick lists, and comments, and conclude that they are a real person. Is it all true, I don't know, but they joined 10 years ago and have over 400 ticks and 400 "contributions." I don't think AI fakes it til it makes it, quite that hard.

For sure, checked out their account and they are 100% a real person. what I found odd is the original post writing style and the subsequent replies on their end. The original post is almost impeccable with like 20 em-dashes, then the follow up replies include sentences with zero capitalization, no em-dashes, run on sentences etc. Just ran it through https://decopy.ai/ai-detector/ and it said it was 80% AI written.

I'm sure Fluffy is cool as hell in real life, just wondering what's up. and yes, I'm 100% AI paranoid (probably for the worse)

I think what you’re seeing is a longer post that was carefully edited down before posting, and then a series of replies written and posted in real time.

James -wrote:

I think what you’re seeing is a longer post that was carefully edited down before posting, and then a series of replies written and posted in real time.

this is 100% it. disregard my nonsense y'all!

Casey Fentonwrote:

For sure, checked out their account and they are 100% a real person. what I found odd is the original post writing style and the subsequent replies on their end. The original post is almost impeccable with like 20 em-dashes, then the follow up replies include sentences with zero capitalization, no em-dashes, run on sentences etc. Just ran it through https://decopy.ai/ai-detector/ and it said it was 80% AI written.

I'm sure Fluffy is cool as hell in real life, just wondering what's up. and yes, I'm 100% AI paranoid (probably for the worse)

Are you one to talk???

But really those detectors are useless, as is quibbling about how someone decided to write a post about an obviously serious issue.

OP, no partner I climb with should ever break down an anchor while any attachments are still on it without triple verifying it is the right thing to do and making sure everyone is safe. I'm surprised anyone has a difference of opinion on that.

I am a little surprised you felt the need to ask a bunch of random strangers on the Internet, when it seems like you got some clear red flags and bad vibes off it, so all I'll contribute is to say: trust your gut, if this person doesn't feel safe don't do risky things with them. It's not worth it.

Yeah, mistakes happen, but then to be nonchalant about almost killing someone? No way

Having been literally abandoned on the mountain before by a longstanding partner, I can relate to your feeling of betrayal. Especially the part where after the fact they act like they did nothing wrong. (Needless to say, I never climbed with the guy again). As many have said, mistakes happen, but it's how you respond to those mistakes that speaks to character. And here this guy completely failed.

I just don't think there is any gray area with this one; they were 100% at fault. You never disconnect an anchor unless you are 100% sure the other person is not attached, and even then you verify with them by saying you're about to break down the anchor.

Brooke Meadowswrote:

If I’d unclipped half the quad my partner was on and was reaching to unclip the other, I would have been gutted and might have concluded I should not be in high stakes terrain. I definitely would’ve taken a time out in my climbing career and slowed down. I would have apologized on several occasions and not responded with ‘best day ever’. If this had led to a death, I would not see it as 50/50 mistake and would see it as manslaughter.  

Part of our communication from the last anchor…

1) as a team we decided to stay on the quad with pas for the beached whale move and leave the quad for reversing the beached whale. It was too dangerous to drag the rope on the loose blocks

2) when done with the summit, I communicated to my partner… ‘clipping into the quad’, ‘ reversing the move’.

3) he was not to the anchor yet but less than 10’ away. I communicated over and over as I weighed the quad on and off. I looked to the right for the rappel descent, unweighted to move to a different angle, then looked left for the rappel, back and forth making assessments and talking to him. We were chatting since the rappel descent was a different route than the climb.

4) I look up and boom… he’d walked to the edge above the beached whale move and had removed one carabiner from the quad, and was reaching for the second (just as I was going to sit back again).

i hope and pray I never am so tired or absent minded that I make a big mistake like that. (Two experienced friends, one amga guide and climbing author have unclipped my only attachment to the anchor previously in cramped quarters. In those cases it might have been more confusing to them and also proved deadly. In this case, it was crazy he walked up to the anchor I was on and started to remove from above.)

Initially I had a long post written including the details above about communication and also ponderings to the state of my partner (maybe he was tired, maybe not enough water/food, maybe I should have picked up on something). The post was long and I’m inexperienced posting here, so I kept it short figuring people would open the discussion if they were interested. Starting short seemed better.

About my partner… he was acting fine but he did call me the wrong name towards the end of the day. I pondered that with climbing friends after the incident. I wondered if I could have picked up that he was bonking, but he was acting normal otherwise. When he called me the wrong name, I mentioned we should get some food and water. He was moving fine and seemed alert. Maybe I should have guessed he was tired from a long drive, lots of pitches, I dunno but certainly had discussed this with several climbing friends wondering what I might have missed. One partner who is writing a book on climbing mistakes said this nearly fatal mistake could have to do with endorphins.  Again I left this from the initial post for brevity sake. I do know I’d prefer a gentler approach to asking questions about the situation instead of saying I’m 50/50 to blame without more questions first. Though, the 50/50 blame is an interesting perspective to apply to other situations. If I’m driving down the road in my lane and a car crashes into me from another lane, am I 50/50 at fault for deciding to be on the road that day? I think that was the intent of the one post… I tied in with that person that day so any mistakes they make are my mistakes too.

Having started climbing in 1976 and with first ascents from the Diamond to the Dolomites, and still being alive, I have some thoughts here. 

First, I have been striving for years to not say to myself, "It couldn't happen to me. I could never do that." Avoiding that outlook is the key to battling complacency. 

Second, I have not read all of this thread's comments but was prompted to write by the original poster's analogy about a driving accident. Reading the other misinformed comments about blame being 50/50, I was already thinking about this thought experiment:  

"So I'm the passenger in the front seat of a car or truck. The person driving is someone I have seen drive for several hours. Suddenly, with no forewarning, the driver jerks their hand on the steering wheel and takes our vehicle off the road toward a deep canyon."

No, the cause of the danger would not be 50/50. It was not up to me to be vigilant for actions that are outside the bounds of a driver who is not suicidal and/or homicidal.

Fluffy, how old was your partner. Brain farts happen as we age. Him calling you by a different name could’ve been dehydration, etc. whatever. That is very concerning. I know there are aging climbers that reading MP, always remind yourself,  be very aware of your thinking on the climb. The brain just does not function as quickly and clearly as a younger person. Just the facts. Forget about trying to act young, being cocky, cool, overconfident with younger climbers. Be honest with yourself , dude ,  you’re getting older. Adjust your climbing to your age. I almost totally top rope  solo now which I love and when climbing with partners I am acutely alert and cautious and they know that. Don’t be complacent, don’t rush. Leave your ego at home and have your “ best day ever “

jay steinkewrote:

Fluffy, how old was your partner. 

Hi Jay, not old age in this situation. 

Fluffy Stuff knows her stuff.  Good post, Fluffy.  Don't climb with that partner again.

How can you redundantly connect your PAS to the anchor bolts? At least on quick draw should be used to connect two bolts or something 

Ivanchenko Vladimirwrote:

How can you redundantly connect your PAS to the anchor bolts? At least on quick draw should be used to connect two bolts or something 

IMO it’s clean, safe, and redundant when people clip into a quad on rappel. I think it’s messy when people clip into a bolt on the anchor (and back it up with a QuickDraw). It’s so clean to attach the quad to the bolts, then use your PAS into the quad. Otherwise you’re having to think where to put your PAS, your buddy’s PAS and the stupid  QuickDraw. Sort of annoys me how messy and time consuming that is vs the quad going into the bolts. As a side note, I don’t think people should clip in twice to anchors… it’s messy and people should pay attention to their one attachment and their buddy’s one attachment (unless there is a lot of rockfall then I’ve attached myself twice).  

I totally agree with the above opinion. I think cleanness, simplicity and easy verification is the key to a safe multi-piltch.

This post, however, opened a whole new can of worms not related to climbing techniques, but rather telling a story of human personalities. To the roughly 1/4 of replies from the weirdos who blamed the original author to any degree - I will be looking for any sign of such lame attitude when selecting my next climbing partner. Not admitting the fault after the brush with death is the largest red flag and a testimony to deadly negligence. 

OK, I'll try to explain why some posts initially suggested that blame might be shared in this incident, or why the tone of the original post raised some questions. 

Here are my two starting points:

• Mistakes and accidents happen.  There is no way to escape that. 
• The most important thing is how we react to, interpret, and process mistakes and accidents.  The goal should be to create a culture where mistakes and accidents are minimized (but never completely eliminated).  

Based on these two points, I think that the OP's partner failed miserably.  His conduct raises serious questions in my mind, and I would definitely re-consider climbing with this person.  However, this is not because he started to unclip the quad, it's because of how he reacted afterward.  He did not acknowledge his mistake, and did not appear to take his mistake seriously, either because of ignorance, ego, the desire to show off in front of a woman, an altered mental state from recreational drugs or medication, fear, denial, whatever.  

So how could I possibly suggest that blame might be shared, or that the tone of the original post raised questions?  

This is what the OP wrote at the beginning of her post: 

At the top of Remain in the Light at Smith (after four pitches), my partner nearly killed me due to a serious lapse in judgment at the anchor. I’m still upset about how dangerously absentminded the mistake was — climbing is inherently risky, but this was avoidable.

The OP states that she was primarily angry about how absentminded the mistake was, and that this was an avoidable mistake. Absentmindedness is a huge contributing factor to accidents, and nearly all accidents are avoidable.  There is nothing unremarkable about this mistake, and therefore no reason to believe that this mistake and others (rapping off the end of the rope, not tying in correctly, not loading belay device correctly) can be so easily avoided.  The OP's shock and distress at what happened is understandable, but it seems not to be tempered by the knowledge that this is exactly the kind of mistake that happens frequently. 

This initially raised questions in my mind about how the OP was processing the incident.  Was she blaming her partner for his mistake, or for the way he reacted?  Later in the post, and in subsequent communication, the OP made it clear that her partner's reaction was the most troubling part of the whole ordeal.  But when I first read the post, this wasn't clear.  Maybe it also wasn't clear to others, and this might explain some of the reactions.

The second thing that caught my attention was this: 

 He said he doesn't usually use quads for rappels and prefers to rely solely on his PAS into the bolts. 

Based on that alone, it seemed like there was misscommunication between the two partners about what system they would use to descend.  If the partner assumed that the OP would clip in directly to the bolt, it makes his mistake easy to explain.  He would not have looked carefully at his partner and confirmed everything, because he would have just asumed that she was following the same practice he was.  

As I believe I shared previosuly, one of my partners, who is extremely experienced, competent, and carefull, took me out of the anchor twice over the course of a season, on multipitch ice climbs, because we were using different systems.  When he was organizing things at the anchor, it just didn't occur to him in the moment that I would be clipped in with a PAS while he was clipped in with the rope.

So, my initial reading was that the mistake was caused partly because the two partners were not on the same page about how they would organize the rappels and descend.  That's a problem of communication, and the responsability of both partners. 

Again, after reading the subsequent posts, I became convinced that the OP did communciate her intentions clearly, but this wasn't obvious at the start, and it might explain some of the reactions.

Stepping back, I think it's right to question why some people, including myself, initially thought blame was shared. 

At the same time, I also think it's right to question the attitudes reflected in many later posts, such as, "This would never happen to me," or, "I always do it it this way so I am safe," or, "Anybody who does things differently or interprets this incident differently is an idiot."  

That attitude is dangerous.  It lead to mistakes and accidents.  

Thumbs down to Russ and Kevin.
Though Kevin seems to have walked it back.

Pretty terrible mistake by your partner. I would not climb with them in this kind of setting again until they acknowledge their mistake and show they are taking it seriously. But maybe it’s too late now since it should have been taken very seriously right away.

I think a good question for me is:

What would you do if you were the partner who made the mistake? Starting at the moment that OP stopped you from unclipping the last carabiner.

I think I’d be absolutely mortified and would be apologizing left and right. I can’t imagine myself EVER unclipping an anchor that my partner is attached to. So just imagining I actually did is quite unnerving. I’d never want make the mistake again and would want to do anything to gain trust again.

I think you’re completely in the right to just not climb with them again if you want. More so because of the lack of seriousness about the mistake than the mistake itself. 

Bruno Schullwrote:

The OP states that she was primarily angry about how absentminded the mistake was, and that this was an avoidable mistake. 

Hi Bruno. Not wanting to split hairs here. This has been discussed. I was never angry. I was/am distressed that someone could walk up to an active anchor, with a human attached, and unclip one carabiner and reach to unclip the other. That person should not be in high stakes terrain without examining what led them to do that. What happened in the original post was not a run of the mill mistake imo…. Walking up to the anchor between selfies/texting, not noticing another human being there, and unclipping them.

Over the years, there are maybe 20 other incidents I didn’t feel compelled to post about but this one was so out there. There was a one nut belay a month ago. Someone forgot to clip into a top anchor once when belaying off the waist. Two days ago, I just was dropped several body lengths following a pitch. We discussed how to not have that happen (there was too much rope in the system with grigri on tree and then belaying 20’ from grigri near the edge) and I wasn’t sure if my partner was receptive. We won’t be climbing again. Last year I was dropped following twice because my partner wouldn’t keep his hands on the grigri - using an 8.5 you 100% need your hands on the brake. I won’t climb with him again. Three years ago a friend dropped me 25’ after I said I was putting a bad piece above my head aiding. If he’d managed the slack appropriately, it would have been a small fall instead of badly damaging my ankle on a ledge way way below me. I won’t be climbing with him again. There was the lack of protection after a crux for 100’ after we’d discussed ad nauseum to protect me. 

There is a cavalier/complacent attitude that is unsettling.

If anyone is fun and safe and wants to climb… maybe reachnn be out to me. :)

After this recent incident, a friend proposed making a rule to never touch the anchor without acknowledgement. He recognized its hard to make demands AND find climbing partners, so it’s complicated. He also gave feedback to thoroughly discuss descents before the climb. So if you are using a biner block to descend and a partner hasn’t seen that, discuss before you leave the ground.

If anyone is fun and safe and wants to climb… maybe reach out to me. :) Especially reach out to me in this next bit before I quit climbing because it’s too sketch.

Hey Fluffy Stuff

(Is there an origin story to that name?)

You wrote:

"Hi Bruno. Not wanting to split hairs here. This has been discussed. I was never angry. I was/am distressed that someone could walk up to an active anchor, with a human attached, and unclip one carabiner and reach to unclip the other. That person should not be in high stakes terrain without examining what led them to do that. What happened in the original post was not a run of the mill mistake imo…. Walking up to the anchor between selfies/texting, not noticing another human being there, and unclipping them."

OK, my apologies, you weren't angry, but you seem to be upset/distressed/disturbed, correct?  I think you have every right to be! Your partner's conduct following the mistake was terrible. 

However, I disagree with you that this was "not a run of the mill accident."  I would say that this was a very normal mistake.  

I assume you have read through the thread about near-misses and mistakes?  If not, look at the summary quoted several times in page 19. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/126203278/scariest-momentsmistakes-when-climbing-not-resulting-in-injury?page=19

Things like this happen over and over. 

Believing this mistake was "special" or "over the top" or "unprecedented" in some way approaches a dangerous attitude.  A trusted partner might do the same on a climb tomorrow.  You might do the same, or something with the similar gravity.  

You posted a list of past mistakes others have made which put you at risk.  How about posting some of the mistakes you have made that endangered others?

I'm not trying to be argumentative or confrontational.  I'm trying to suggest that what happened is comprehensible, and that approaching the mistake from that perspective, instead of as a highly unlikely event, will lead to more productive outcomes, and is a more honest reflection of climbing and the mistakes that we all make.  

By the way, the whole texting/talking selfies thing is perhaps the most incriminating things you have shared about your partner.  The only things worse might have been if he was trying to pilot a drone at the same time.

Hi Bruno… typing on my phone so I didn’t see I’d overwritten what I’d written. I’d had in the last post tried to write a near miss I’d done but instead overwritten with a cut and paste about finding partners.

I’d written…

I still remember 15 years ago when I was leading a friend up a route. I almost disconnected their tether and caught it on a triple check, since something didn’t seem right. That stuck with me for months, since he was trusting me and it would have killed him had I disconnected him mistakenly.

Other mistakes… I gave a very light friend a slightly hard catch… it didn’t hurt him… but I felt I didn’t have the right skills to sport belay at the time. I felt bad for days since his foot slammed hard against the wall. He then successfully led his pitch with another person.

Once I said I’d lead a pg13 pitch and I wimped out which impacted our day, because then my partner took the lead and was stressed. He was a 5.12 climber and I was a 5.10 climber.

Seems I like we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t think this was normal. I have a strong opinion to not be afraid of rapping. Some people won’t rappel because it’s ’ dangerous’. I argue over and over that rappelling is when your mistakes show. I want to climb with people who are not constantly making mistakes. Does that make sense?

Again… it’s hard/annoying to type on this little screen and only see but a sentence or two at a time. I’m happy to jump on a call if you’d like to discuss more. I sent you a DM. I’m really not into arguing about this. I see the mistake as crazy, and you see it as not crazy. Got it.

Thanks for the clarrification Fluffy Stuff. 

I really like what you wrote, "I want to climb with people who are not constantly making mistakes."

That definitely makes sense!

I'll get back to the DM when I'm done cooking dinner for my daughter!

Brooke Meadowswrote:

Hi Bruno. Not wanting to split hairs here. This has been discussed. I was never angry. I was/am distressed that someone could walk up to an active anchor, with a human attached, and unclip one carabiner and reach to unclip the other. That person should not be in high stakes terrain without examining what led them to do that. What happened in the original post was not a run of the mill mistake imo…. Walking up to the anchor between selfies/texting, not noticing another human being there, and unclipping them.

Over the years, there are maybe 20 other incidents I didn’t feel compelled to post about but this one was so out there. There was a one nut belay a month ago. Someone forgot to clip into a top anchor once when belaying off the waist. Two days ago, I just was dropped several body lengths following a pitch. We discussed how to not have that happen (there was too much rope in the system with grigri on tree and then belaying 20’ from grigri near the edge) and I wasn’t sure if my partner was receptive. We won’t be climbing again. Last year I was dropped following twice because my partner wouldn’t keep his hands on the grigri - using an 8.5 you 100% need your hands on the brake. I won’t climb with him again. Three years ago a friend dropped me 25’ after I said I was putting a bad piece above my head aiding. If he’d managed the slack appropriately, it would have been a small fall instead of badly damaging my ankle on a ledge way way below me. I won’t be climbing with him again. There was the lack of protection after a crux for 100’ after we’d discussed ad nauseum to protect me. 

There is a cavalier/complacent attitude that is unsettling.

If anyone is fun and safe and wants to climb… maybe reachnn be out to me. :)

After this recent incident, a friend proposed making a rule to never touch the anchor without acknowledgement. He recognized its hard to make demands AND find climbing partners, so it’s complicated. He also gave feedback to thoroughly discuss descents before the climb. So if you are using a biner block to descend and a partner hasn’t seen that, discuss before you leave the ground.

If anyone is fun and safe and wants to climb… maybe reach out to me. :) Especially reach out to me in this next bit before I quit climbing because it’s too sketch.

Where are you finding these people? 

Without blaming your climbing skills and knowledge (your tick list is impressive) it does seem like you constantly travel to climb (good for you, and again based on your tick list) so you are constantly meeting partners on the fly, and may have very low standards for a partner. If they have a gri gri and a pulse, you are willing to lead things you clearly fall on or resort to aiding through.

Many people here will say they only lead "easy" routes with a new partner, and would never get on something with a decent chance of falling. You may want to consider being more selective about who you climb with. These are not normal experiences you are having.

PS - 20 or so incidents? I feel like we are being trolled and/or there is a common denominator here...