Thoughts on Girth Hitch Equalisation

Andy Kirkpatrickwrote:

Agreed. I think it's worth teaching young climbers the difference between probability and possibility, as a lot of theory impedes practice. Much of this comes from the fact a bunch of climbers cannot go climbing as much as they want, where all these things become clearer, and so chase the rabbit on forums like this. 

Fair. Look at us, watching the clouds outside and hoping to get to the gym.

Fundamentally anchor building is about a broad toolkit for finding strong placements or assessing the quality of fixed hardware/tat.

Just tie yourself to those strong placements at more than one point and you are gtg, imo.

THAT is what people should focus on and only comes with experience. Book/forum learning will not do.

John Tuttlewrote:

Beware meteors you noobs! FFS! 

It's technically possible but statistically beyond improbable.

:P

Just to play devil's advocate here... This accident occured mid route on a multipitch anchor where a microwave to toaster sized block fell and cut one arm of a sling anchor... I think the stance was not hanging and neither climber received injuries but could easily have applied 3kn or so in a less stable stance after the cutting so yes the loading after cutting situation is improbable but idk if beyond improbable is accurate to say... This image is from an amga rock instructor (OG certs) and guide company owner so pretty reliable and i can get more info if needed. 

Andrew Lambwrote:

Just to play devil's advocate here... This accident occured mid route on a multipitch anchor where a microwave to toaster sized block fell and cut one arm of a sling anchor... I think the stance was not hanging and neither climber received injuries but could easily have applied 3kn or so in a less stable stance after the cutting so yes the loading after cutting situation is improbable but idk if beyond improbable is accurate to say... This image is from an amga rock instructor (OG certs) and guide company owner so pretty reliable and i can get more info if needed. 

Andrew, thanks. That’s the accident I was referring to earlier. Thanks for finding it. Was that in Little Cottonwood Canyon perhaps? Imagine if it was a simple sliding x (very common here in Catalunya) and the belayer had been leaning back on it. Highly improbable, as you say, but not impossible…. And it only takes once. 

Yes this kind of accident has happened and will happen again. Saying that the probability is extremely low and we should go climb instead of discussing on a forum is not right, because the day this happens you better be faultless, and I'd rather discuss it safely now than during a trial because someone died. Especially when your second is less experienced, you will be held responsible for the technical choices.

In this situation I believe the girth hitch would slip only a few milimeters if at all and would be safe, that's why I use it, but if it did slip out, I'm sure some expert would say it's not state of the art and you should have used an overhand / 8 / bowline / whatever.

Andrew Lambwrote:

Maybe the belay station is not in a great place?

That's kind of an old fundamental idea. Probably doesn't apply anymore. 

Andrew Lambwrote:

Just to play devil's advocate here... This accident occured mid route on a multipitch anchor where a microwave to toaster sized block fell and cut one arm of a sling anchor... I think the stance was not hanging and neither climber received injuries but could easily have applied 3kn or so in a less stable stance after the cutting so yes the loading after cutting situation is improbable but idk if beyond improbable is accurate to say... This image is from an amga rock instructor (OG certs) and guide company owner so pretty reliable and i can get more info if needed. 

Of course if the rock had landed 6 inches lower on the knot or master point the anchor would have failed no matter what method was used.  

I made the same comment Eric Craig did when I saw this years ago.  Picking relative safe belay locations is very important. 

Andrew Lambwrote:

Just to play devil's advocate here... This accident occured mid route on a multipitch anchor where a microwave to toaster sized block fell and cut one arm of a sling anchor... I think the stance was not hanging and neither climber received injuries but could easily have applied 3kn or so in a less stable stance after the cutting so yes the loading after cutting situation is improbable but idk if beyond improbable is accurate to say... This image is from an amga rock instructor (OG certs) and guide company owner so pretty reliable and i can get more info if needed. 

1. Sorry, none of the options presented here would have failed in this case (and yes, I am familiar with this event previously).

2. The probability I referred to was this happening and your hitch failing which has never happened in the history of climbing, still.

3. Just as probable as the above accident would be the rock landing precisely on the loop formed and clipped into by both climbers or hitting the hitch/knot itself or one of the climber's rope that he is tied in with or right on a carabiner etc. Nothing would have saved them in that case. Again, a meteor strike is more probable than a precise strike like those and we accept that risk every day climbing.

4. FAR more probable would be the rock hitting and severely injuring or killing one of the climbers as they represent far easier targets to hit. 

You have actually made my point, not refute it, to someone that understands statistics (which all climbing safety depends on, ultimately). ANYTHING can happen. Other events in climbing that will get you killed are FAR more likely and this "scenario" leading to fatality is the least of your concerns.

However, I have a better idea and that is to ALWAYS tie in twice to the anchor ie use your master point for weighting the anchor or hanging a belay device but always throw a clove on one of the bolts too for each person at the belay. That way you don't get to be the "meteor" victim of a defective single sling failing, a rock cutting your master point in some way or a gate opening. Bonus: and you each back each other and the master point up a little bit more. Personally, I like a PAS for weight (adjustable) on one of the pieces plus a clove into another strong/master point of the anchor as it allows me to move about with some degree of freedom and gives me a second tie in.

Crazy talk.

Next, we will hear from the assembled noobery on this site that slings never are defective and locking carabiners never have their gates open and tying in once is always safe...because what they do is "safe" and they have always done it that way.

Loic Prstwrote:

Yes this kind of accident has happened and will happen again. Saying that the probability is extremely low and we should go climb instead of discussing on a forum is not right, because the day this happens you better be faultless, and I'd rather discuss it safely now than during a trial because someone died. Especially when your second is less experienced, you will be held responsible for the technical choices.

In this situation I believe the girth hitch would slip only a few milimeters if at all and would be safe, that's why I use it, but if it did slip out, I'm sure some expert would say it's not state of the art and you should have used an overhand / 8 / bowline / whatever.

Meteor strikes will happen again too. 

You have been warned, better be wearing your helmet when you cross the street.

Please don't tell all those people that tie in with the rope alone that it can get cut by falling rocks.

What's wrong with that practice? How about all those people that tie into rap anchors with single slings? Are they gonna die?

Maybe all those belayers that let their leader/second climb with Single ropes that then get cut should be sued? We all know Double ropes are safer. Triple ropes even better?

Where does it end?

Tie into the anchor twice in some fashion instead of only using single slings no matter how they are tied/hitched. Problem solved.

You can easily make the point that tying in to only one master point is more risky than any of these sling configurations that makes an attempt at redundancy.

The rope can be cut, the rock can land directly on the biner/hitch or knot forming the loop or the loop itself for a few examples.

Cool. 

My stalker BH Kyle is here! 

(ignore)

Eric Craigwrote:

That's kind of an old fundamental idea. Probably doesn't apply anymore. 

The fourm quotes are hard in the app😅

Anyway I'm not the reporting party so I don't have more details... I believe a party above caused the rock fall... But I can't speak to the belay being in a bad place or not... Though I've climbed many mountains where I've been on bolted anchor trad routes and passed large movable rocks that would directly hit the Belayer so i guess my personal statistics are different than Mr. Hillbilly's which is ok and true all at the same time.... 

I don't think i took a stance on the anchor system vs just how much or little data we ACTUALLY have... So to even talk about statistics when we have an unknown seems a bit silly and i just wanted to add some data to the conversation... 

I use both slings and cordallet (idk is that misspelled 😂) both girth hitch (actually been cloving the sling and climbing the carabiners more often than true girth/larksfoot) and pre-equalized (as it's called in text books in America) master points and sometimes even just use the rope clipped to both bolts and even then switch between the cloves and bight knots... Mostly because i have adhd and it's random luck what i end up having to spare at the Anchors when i get there 😅

I think everyone is making mostly sensible points and really it comes down to the vibes the anchor gives you and the tools you are practiced in... Vs data or statistical analysis or physics... But I enjoy these digressions and distractions from the world at large so carry on boys 🙏🤟

Cordelette is how I have spelled it. I first learned the term from Peter Mayfield. He had just returned from an AMGA gathering or meeting in Colorado were Antoine Savelli conducted a clinic for guides. This was about 1986. Antoine emigrated from France, and word was he was a graduate of ENSA, and a UIAGM Guide. Peter demonstrated anchor building and some improvised rescue stuff,  with the "cordelette", for me one day, and was surprised at my lack of enthusiasm. I eventually let on that I already new all that stuff, the only thing new was the name for the 15 foot piece of 7mm cord, and that I learned these things during the ACMG course I took a year or so previously. In Canada all that stuff was force fed in a couple hours,  and then you were expected to perform it. That's because the focus of their guides training,  at that time, was GUIDING, and not much time for playing games with a bunch of techno-wizardry shit. We did spend days and days short roping SAFELY in all kinds of mountain terrain. Contrary to comments made by the OP and by other participants here in past threads, short roping can be conducted VERY safely.

Well of course Peter asked why I hadn't shared my knowledge. I expressed my doubts about how it would have been received. Readers here should understand that much of the YMS staff was old school dyed in the cotton (wool in one case) Yosemite climbers. Hell, the school had students dulfersitz their first rappel,  we all used tied webbing swami belts,  and nothing but hip belays all the time. Six carabiner rappel brakes were "advanced climbing", and done with makeshift leg loops.

That's how it was, early to mid 1980's. But the environment within the AMGA was soon to change.

Thanks for that history, Eric.

Many of us from that era (with few lockers and no sewn gear) retain a healthy skepticism of trusting our lives to any single piece of gear, especially if it will experience "belay-like" forces ie more than body weight. This can happen either by loading the anchor from falling or single "legs" of the anchor failing in this case we are discussing. This includes slings and biners and sometimes the rope remains in the realm of the possible. Don't trust single things if you can avoid it, imo, I don't care how advanced your macrame skills.

Clearly, convenience v laziness v complacency factors into our decisions but if the idea of a hitch failing under load after one leg gets cut is a concern for you the answer is not the knot that you have chosen, imo. The "meteor" will just as probably hit the knot itself, or the loop formed or the biner or the rope itself etc. (let alone you as the most likely) and you are staking your life to all those single things as much as the choice of hitch/knot supposedly granting you redundancy/safety. It doesn't add up to being worth it as a problem to "solve" somehow by one knot v one hitch or another.

The answer is to be connected into the anchor in more than one way, imo, rather than ever relying on one single thing or even not only the rope when it suits you (make your own life choices here). Using the rope alone to connect to your anchor (of whatever type of your flavor of spaghetti) can be improved upon by using both the rope and an adjustable PAS (pick your flavor) to another part of the anchor. IF and when it suits you as other personal prerogatives may rule the day, of course. If you are happy with your current practice, whoever you are, carry on.

This is probably born out of big walling where you commonly tie in long then use your daisies to move about a horizontal anchor etc. but it works for me and prevents annoying readjustment of cloves etc. I'm a big fan of the current plethora of adjustable daisy options with dynamic rope for the lanyard +plus a clove to the anchor for truly redundant connection (other than we're stuck with trusting those newfangled sewn harnesses) lool. 

:P

While no two anchors exactly alike, long have I used the protocol described by the resolute hill billy.

Fixed anchor - on arrival, clip personal tether in, lock the biner, signal off belay. Belayer can now take me off and get ready to climb.

Tie in with rope to anchor bolt, adjusted so as to be fairly equal but slightly longer than the tether. I prefer a fig 8 over clove, but have used inter-changably. 

I now have a decently equalized anchor, fixed twice from harness to anchor, and I can adjust tether for micro-comfort. Takes about 10 seconds. Pull up rope, put on belay, call ON BELAY. Easily less than a minute, if feeling rushed.

If gear anchor, arrive at belay, put in pro, clip tether. If super solid, call off belay. If slightly smelly, place 2nd piece and tie into that with rope. Then call off belay. Add a 3rd piece, assuming its possible, and short clip that piece to one of the other two. 

Done. No master points, no extra cordage, often no slings involved, fairly equalized, no extension, and fast. 

Every single one of my fancy pants partners who uses cords and master points takes forever on every anchor. It's embarrassing! (for them)

Andy Kirkpatrickwrote:

So, there is no single “way” to do anything, rather, it’s about mastering (or at least understanding) as many ways as possible, so you can apply the method you, and your partner(s), feel most comfortable using.

I started climbing in the late 90s when cordelettes were all the rage in the USA. I learned a variety of other options too, the rope, slings, sliding Xs, etc. My second cordelette was from 5.5mm dyneema cord and it became my go to 80% of the time because it was super simple, I could set it up just as fast as clove hitching the rope into a few pieces, I liked the masterpoint, it was great for trees, cut it up if needed to bail, if I had to self rescue I didn't need to worry about building a new anchor so I could use the rope to rappel, I can use the rope with a clove hitch to have an easily adjustable tether of any length, etc. Then around 2010 cordelettes became passe and quads became the rage, I think partly because people realized cordelletes don't equalize, but I wasn't worried about equalization when I knew each piece could do the job on it's own. I only use a quad for setting up an anchor for multiple climbs on top rope where the direction may change a lot (that's how I also used a sliding X with limiter knots back in the day). As soon as I tried the girth hitch anchor about 10 years ago it became my go to for multipitch 80% of the time. I can build it faster than putting a few clove hitches in the rope, it still has a master point, the rope is free in case of emergencies/long pitches, it's the easiest way to get the anchor lined up in the direction of force so the pieces have almost no extension, etc.

But I've also come to realize, different options not only work better for different situations, but also may work better for different people. The girth hitch makes perfect sense to me but if someone is comfortable with a quad and a girth hitch freaks them out I'm not about to say it's better.

Not much more to add to this discussion except that I like the potential slippage of girth hitch master point as a feature.  

Aside from the rare example cited with pics above (and as far as I’m concerned, now that that particular rockfall/sling cut has happened, I don’t need to worry about it again in my lifetime), for a pair of ice screws or small cams/nuts in a trad alpine belay, if one piece blows, the slippage a girth hitch functions like smooth acting load limiter scrubbing some more energy out of the fall and reducing the ultimate peak load on the remaining piece.  

Eric Craigwrote:

Cordelette is how I have spelled it. I first learned the term from Peter Mayfield. He had just returned from an AMGA gathering or meeting in Colorado were Antoine Savelli conducted a clinic for guides. This was about 1986. Antoine emigrated from France, and word was he was a graduate of ENSA, and a UIAGM Guide. Peter demonstrated anchor building and some improvised rescue stuff,  with the "cordelette", for me one day, and was surprised at my lack of enthusiasm. I eventually let on that I already new all that stuff, the only thing new was the name for the 15 foot piece of 7mm cord, and that I learned these things during the ACMG course I took a year or so previously. In Canada all that stuff was force fed in a couple hours,  and then you were expected to perform it. That's because the focus of their guides training,  at that time, was GUIDING, and not much time for playing games with a bunch of techno-wizardry shit. We did spend days and days short roping SAFELY in all kinds of mountain terrain. Contrary to comments made by the OP and by other participants here in past threads, short roping can be conducted VERY safely.

Well of course Peter asked why I hadn't shared my knowledge. I expressed my doubts about how it would have been received. Readers here should understand that much of the YMS staff was old school dyed in the cotton (wool in one case) Yosemite climbers. Hell, the school had students dulfersitz their first rappel,  we all used tied webbing swami belts,  and nothing but hip belays all the time. Six carabiner rappel brakes were "advanced climbing", and done with makeshift leg loops.

That's how it was, early to mid 1980's. But the environment within the AMGA was soon to change.

It's interesting how long it takes for good ideas to catch fire, or just smolder, or die, like the original New Alp Magic Plate, that seemed to be knocking around for years until it started to go gain some non-guide traction, then be picked up and integrated into belay plates (remember the Yates Slave?). Stuff comes and goes, and the way things are made changes, sometimes to make them better, sometimes to make then cheaper to make (the mid 90s BD harnesses, like the Wizard, XX etc, were so well made and solid, and modern ones often feel almost disposable). There's also this funny thing were someone claims to invented something, a knot, a technique, a piece of gear, only for someone to come out of the woodwork and show they were first. "Originality is nothing but judicious imitation.”

I talked Pete Zabrok through girth hitch equalization just today. He was equalizing a couple of dicey aid placements and I said this would be a perfect place for that girth hitch thing. He said okay I’ll try it, how does it go again? Worked well, at least he didn’t die.

I carry quads everywhere I go, saw it on the gram!

M Mwrote:

I carry quads everywhere I go, saw it on the gram!

 

That's kinda funny. I haven't used a "quad" for at least 35 years. But maybe I just now learned where the name came from.

Charles Winsteadwrote:

I talked Pete Zabrok through girth hitch equalization just today. He was equalizing a couple of dicey aid placements and I said this would be a perfect place for that girth hitch thing. He said okay I’ll try it, how does it go again? Worked well, at least he didn’t die.

A sliding X with limiter knots equalizes. A girth hitch doesn't equalize, but it doesn't extend.