Trad Lead Practice Setup

Trad noob here, looking to get some practice/gain trust in placements beyond mock aiding/bounce-testing, which I have done quite a bit of. I've read about tying into two belays, one on TR, and one lead belayer, and having the TR belayer leave some slack out to take some practice falls with a backup, but I ran into another comment somewhere that had an intriguing idea, which wouldn't require a second belay: Set up a fixed line on the route you are planning to climb, and tie overhand on a bight knots/alpine butterflies at intervals along the fixed line, clipping the bights with draws. Then you can lead up the route and "sport climb" the loops on the fixed line, giving you the ability to take backed-up lead falls. The recommendation was to use a static rope, but is there any reason you couldn't use a dynamic one (don't really want to buy another rope if I don't have to)? 

Any thoughts on this setup or other recommendations? Thanks in advance!

[Edited for clarity]

If you don't have a partner do groundwork.  Find cracks close to the ground and bounce test your placements. You get a sore butt when they fail .  If you do have a partner do not waste them on mock anything. Go lead something easy and don't fall. If that's too easy lead something harder.  Aid a C1 crack or two. Eventually you will lead something hard enough to fall on.  The idea being that by the time you are leading climbs hard enough to fall on you will have placed enough gear, cleaned enough gear and tested enough gear to be proficient at placing good gear.  Keep in mind that trad climbing is quite often Not sport climbing. Even seasoned pros have gear rip occasionally.  Your mission is to stay alive long enough to learn when its okay to push and when you should  not allow yourself to fall.   I like the idea of incorporating gear placements and testing into your TR solo routine if you have one. Just dont get too crazy taking big falls  out by yourself on a setup that you will have to self rescue from if something goes wrong. 

You sound prepped to me. You've lead some sport up to 5.10, including flashes. You've practiced placing gear, and tested it. It's always going to be a bit intimidating your first real trad leads. No matter what you do. In fact, if you pursue advancing, then the intimidation factor will recur. It's part of the game.

Backed up falls onto your gear is a great learning and mental training tool. Using butterflies on a fixed line will work but is faffy to set up. You can try to find bolted routes that take some gear, or get on well protected steep trad routes and build nests of good gear to back up the piece you're falling on. 

Evan Cole wrote:

Ive been practicing placements by using a connect adjust and bouncing while on top rope or TRS.  I think if I had a belayer you could put an alpine butterfly about 4 feet off your tie in and fall that 4 feet onto your piece.  It would be a hard catch so be ready for it and if the piece blows you'll only fall the stretch of the rope.  If anyone sees issue with this setup please let me know.

If you're suggesting what I think you're suggesting, that's a great way to get hurt.

You can do the two belay setup with one competent belayer and rope. Set the TR, tie into both ends of the rope. Take a belay on TR, and have a second un-minded belay on the lead/back end. If/when you want to practice falling on the gear, they can tie off the TR with slack, and catch on the lead side.

Works easiest using a grigri on the TR, and a tube style on the lead. It’s a little faffy for the belayer having two devices, but I’ve done this a few times when people are practicing leading on gear. Two belayers is obviously easier. 

Alex your plan does not sound clear to me. I'm a firm believer in - if you can't clearly describe it, you don't understand it. And you should not take any sort of lead fall on a static rope.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Alex your plan does not sound clear to me. I'm a firm believer in - if you can't clearly describe it, you don't understand it. And you should not take any sort of lead fall on a static rope.

I probably should have said fixed rope instead of TR; maybe that is part of the confusion. I am not planning to take falls onto a static rope. Let me clarify.

Backing up gear by clipping bolts on sport routes is ok, and I have tried this, but usually sport climbs have bad gear placements (which is why they are bolted). So it is easier to practice placing good gear on established, unbolted trad routes. I would just substitute the bolts for a line fixed at the top of the route, tied with loops at intervals. If you fall and the gear pops,  your lead rope, clipped to a loop on the fixed line, catches you just as a bolt would.

Hopefully this clears things up. 

I wouldn’t want to try that with a dynamic rope for the fixed line. I know people often TR solo on dynamic fixed ropes, but this seems quite a bit worse. If a piece ripped, you’d have an ordinary lead fall with the stretch in your lead rope, plus the distance from the blown piece to the closest backup knot, plus the stretch in the entire length of the fixed line between you and the anchor with the force of a lead fall. That could end up being a massive fall in situations where it shouldn’t be

Plus there would be a chance of core shot or worse where the fixed line goes over the edge if that’s not setup wisely, as it could abrade while stretching under the tension of a lead fall loaded over the edge. I wouldn’t like that idea even with padding. At the very least I’d want it to be fixed to some pieces below the ledge (and ideally spread throughout the climb) to limit the amount of stretch and get rid of the loading over the edge. But if you don’t trust your gear because you’re new to trad climbing and the entire point of this is to not need to rely on your placements, then this is also not a very good option.

I made a top rope anchor with dynamic rope once when I didn’t have a static rope to setup a TR in an area with chopped bolts and spread out natural anchor points. I thought a little rope stretch wouldn’t be the end of the world, but it made a normal tope rope fall feel like a small lead fall. I can’t imagine what an actual lead fall would be like on a much larger version of that setup, but I don’t think it would help with any fear of falling you might have.

So I’d get a static rope if you want to try this. But even better, I’d get a mentor who can place bomber gear. Then they could pre-place backups for you (or pre-inspect backups you place), and you could lead it in a more conventional way and with more feedback. If you’re just learning to trad lead, I’d prioritize practicing climbing over practicing falling for a while, as falling is often not a great option on the relatively easy climbs one does when learning to trad climb (or when perpetually stagnating at those grades for many years afterwards for some of us haha).

And no matter what method you use, if you’re planning to whip on gear you don’t completely and totally trust, use a draw with lockers on both ends for the second highest thing you clip, regardless of whether it’s another piece, a fixed line, or a bolt The second highest piece can come unclipped when the rope springs back like a rubber band after the top piece pulls, and this has caused multiple accidents.

I know this has been covered before.  You can hang a dynamic rope with knots and double lead, yes.  But…

If you find yourself setting up elaborate systems to mock lead, you probably already have a good enough grasp of gear and placements.  It might be useful once or twice, but after that you have to confront your fear.  That’s the real barrier for most people when trad climbing: head game.  Eventually, ya gotta whip.  

Mock leading just doesn’t do it.  But there are other baby steps that can help. For some foolish reason, I will list some:

Get reasonably strong.  Leading low angle terrain is dangerous.  If that’s your ability level, get stronger.  Leading 5.5 slabs is a great way to build a “never fall” mentality that will come back to haunt you later on.   Leading is about being confident in your movement and your protection.  Never testing it isn’t the right way to be confident.  You need to get on climbs where falls are safe.  That means vertical or steeper.  Seek those routes out and put in time to climb at that level of difficulty.

Whip on bolts.  Most people are just afraid of falling.  80% of falling on gear is the same as falling on bolts.  Get on some hard sport routes, go bolt to bolt, take, whip, and get your head back to thinking about movement, not falling

As mentioned above, Aid.  Stepping onto and hanging on gear creates an understanding of how gear gets loaded.  And you have a closeup view!  

Pinkpoint.  Rap in and place the gear yourself, then lead it like a sport route.  You can have a buddy rap in and inspect your gear with you.  Don’t over-use this trick though.  Placing gear under stress is a big part of the game.  Move on from pink-pointing after you have taken a few good falls.  

Fall high.  Select routes where you can easily get far from falling hazards like ledges and the ground.  You can even do mixed routes that start on bolts.  

Accept risk.  Stop telling yourself you can make climbing safe.  It isn’t.  The consequences of mistakes are severe.  Practice and experience are parts of avoiding mistakes, but the biggest part is believing in your ability to mitigate hazards.  That isn’t developed in scenarios and games.  It’s learned when the risks are real.

People will disagree.  They will defend learning on easy terrain.  They will laud mock leading as a breakthrough.  They will exaggerate the risk and point to a thousand instances where someone got hurt.  

If you really want to mock lead, carry on.  You’ll learn stuff from that.  There are plenty of risks there as well. But you won’t be confronting the bigger issues:  Strength, falling, confidence, real-time decisions.  

Put your time where you will.

Just go climbing. enough with the mock time wasting BS. If you have a partner its time to climb. Pick climbs that are G rated and easy enough to build confidence.  

I only do this technique with folks who have had gear rip and need a confidence boost. A few folks have pointed out some considerations you should keep in mind, but I'll reiterate them:

1. Use a fixed static or semi-static rope that you can clip draws to for protection. If you're really against buying another rope you could double or triple up the rope to reduce the stretch at the expense of bulky knots and faff. Together the strands will share the load and stretch less and a single strand. Better yet, use a chain /sarcasm.
2. Protect the fixed line from abrasion.
3. If you're still this hesitant about falling on your gear after bounce testing extensively then you should be overbuilding your anchors. Minimum three pieces, strong (10kn) and easy to place gear (0.5 and bigger cams, #6/green BD and bigger stoppers), good load sharing, no extension. I see too many beginners and "experienced" climbers alike building two piece anchors with tiny gear. 

All that said, just go lead. You've put in the technical work, now you need to do the mental work. Trad climbing is dangerous. Trad climbing can be scary. You can mitigate a lot of the risk but you'll need to accept some of it. A big part of trad climbing is the head game: understanding when a fall is consequential and your movement is your protection, nesting gear before a run out then punching it, accepting a fall when the gear is good and the fall is clean, not placing mental pro that only tires you out and wastes your rack. You need to go learn that head game as well as you've learned the technical aspects of placing gear.

Adam Flemingwrote:

[...] Better yet, use a chain /sarcasm[...]

HA! This is hilarious. Not sure how I haven't seen this before; Jeff works at the climbing gym I go to. I'll have to mention this to him.

This is all great advice, thank you!

Based on your recent ticks and the familiarity you've worked on with trad placements and gear testing, I would say it's time to go do the real thing and try leading something very easy in the 5.5 - 5.6 range. A massive part of becoming a good trad leader is developing a bulletproof mental game and lead head, and it only happens from getting on the sharp end over and over again. The longer I've done it and the harder the grades I find myself able to do, the fear never goes away. It's always scary climbing at/near your limit above gear, it's also extremely rewarding and fun.

Find something easy and do the real thing. Carry plenty of gear so you can place a bunch to help with the nerves. You got this dude.

Alex Jordanwrote:

Trad noob here, looking to get some practice/gain trust in placements beyond mock aiding/bounce-testing,

I hope you will excuse the thread drift but I've seen these "trust in placements" posts before and I find myself wondering if this is a relatively new phenomenon, or if people have always had this process and I was just unaware of it.  

From the minute I started placing gear, I have alway felt confident that I knew what a good placement was.  I always felt I knew just by looking and sometimes a good tug what was bomber placement and what might be marginal. That doesn't mean I wasn't apprehensive about taking lead falls - of course I was.  But it was not because I thought my gear would fail, it's just I was inexperienced in falling.

In thinking about this,  I might have been confident in my own placements because I followed and removed gear for about 5 years before I started leading, so I had seen and removed a lot of placements.  I had read some literature and learned about how the security of placements could be dependent on the type of rock.  I understood the concept and reality of good rock, friable rock, flexing flakes, flaring cracks, shallow cracks, etc. and how those factors could affect the quality of the placement. 

I'm a very analytical person and to me, knowing the type of rock (granite, basalt, sandstones of various types) is one of the most important aspects because of how gear behaves in that type of rock. Then just visually looking at the shape variation and depth of the crack and knowing the angle of travel/potential fall line etc etc.   - I feel like it's easy to assess where to put a piece and if the placement is bomber.  If it is - I still might double up, if it's the ground fall zone, because never say never.  If it isn't bomber or if the pieces are small  - I might equalize two pieces, I might use a screamer,  but otherwise I never think about trusting the gear.  If I know when I place it that the placement is iffy - and I have no choice because there are no other good options - then of course you often have to go on, but those are the "leader must not fall" places. 

I guess the point of saying all this is that there may be other practices that you can do that will help you be a safer trad leader, in addition to  "testing" placements.  If you lived near me, I'd be happy to go out with you for a day and place a bunch of gear and explain why I placed it here and not there, why this angle, why this depth.  Maybe there is someone you know who can do that with you...

Stay safe...

I strongly believe it's a difference between starting pre-sport/gym climbing and starting in the 21st century. From day one now people are taught/ learn to not trust themselves. In many ways. 

My apprenticeship was much shorter. I had a great mentor for that beginning phase. Especially the spring break week in 1973. It was like the 5 day course we taught at YMS in the 80's on steroids. I was taught almost everything you need to know to climb El Cap. Most people here would know his name, everyone knows about his son. It was just blind luck. 

Phylp's post is really good. No surprise there.

phylp phylpwrote:

I hope you will excuse the thread drift but I've seen these "trust in placements" posts before and I find myself wondering if this is a relatively new phenomenon, or if people have always had this process and I was just unaware of it.  

From the minute I started placing gear, I have alway felt confident that I knew what a good placement was.  I always felt I knew just by looking and sometimes a good tug what was bomber placement and what might be marginal. That doesn't mean I wasn't apprehensive about taking lead falls - of course I was.  But it was not because I thought my gear would fail, it's just I was inexperienced in falling.

In thinking about this,  I might have been confident in my own placements because I followed and removed gear for about 5 years before I started leading, so I had seen and removed a lot of placements.  I had read some literature and learned about how the security of placements could be dependent on the type of rock.  I understood the concept and reality of good rock, friable rock, flexing flakes, flaring cracks, shallow cracks, etc. and how those factors could affect the quality of the placement. 

I'm a very analytical person and to me, knowing the type of rock (granite, basalt, sandstones of various types) is one of the most important aspects because of how gear behaves in that type of rock. Then just visually looking at the shape variation and depth of the crack and knowing the angle of travel/potential fall line etc etc.   - I feel like it's easy to assess where to put a piece and if the placement is bomber.  If it is - I still might double up, if it's the ground fall zone, because never say never.  If it isn't bomber or if the pieces are small  - I might equalize two pieces, I might use a screamer,  but otherwise I never think about trusting the gear.  If I know when I place it that the placement is iffy - and I have no choice because there are no other good options - then of course you often have to go on, but those are the "leader must not fall" places. 

I guess the point of saying all this is that there may be other practices that you can do that will help you be a safer trad leader, in addition to  "testing" placements.  If you lived near me, I'd be happy to go out with you for a day and place a bunch of gear and explain why I placed it here and not there, why this angle, why this depth.  Maybe there is someone you know who can do that with you...

Stay safe...

Yeah, that doesn't happen anymore. People with 3 months in the gym want to start multipitch trad climbing and expect the process to take a day to learn. The days of following, gaining experience, and having patience before leading are over. Now anyone can go look at a few Youtube videos to "learn how to trad climb" and feel extremely confident with their skills despite not knowing how to evaluate rock, having no feedback on their placements from an experienced and qualified mentor, or even being able to evaluate the quality and validity of the information they've consumed. 

One of my most prominent memories of a novice trad leader blindly trusting placements was this dude who could campus V10 placing a 0.1 with all the confidence in the world. I asked him if he trusted it, of course he said yes. I asked him to sit on it. He hesitated. I told him if he didn't trust it to hold his body weight why place it expecting it to hold a fall? He sat. It popped (he was on TR). He was humbled a bit and toned down the bravado for the rest of the day.

In short, Phylp's way -the old school way- is a good way, but not the way most people are going now adays. If you're not willing to put in the time following and absorbing all the information you can, then bounce testing on TR is a decent way to understand what holds and what blows, though it can also teach you to trust marginal placements if you don't slam your hips down with enough gusto. 

IME, it's super helpful to climb with folks you trust to look at your placements and evaluate them.

If the folks you're climbing with can't do that, then find some folks who have been around a bit and can- there are a lot of folks, especially if you're in CO or WY.  It's odd to me the that there's not a lot of discussion about partners in the OP, either folks who already know or folks who are learning along-side.

These discussions always remind me of the "what first rack should I buy", and one easy good answer is "climb on other folks' gear until you know what you like".  To which folks then retort that they are climbing with folks who have no gear, and to which I retort, "that is probably a bad strategy if you can avoid it".

I mean, it's all fun.  If aiding stuff is how you want to do some placements, then I go for it.  I've aided a fair bit just cause it can be fun, and yeah, it'll reveal what will hold and all... but even with that fun it's still just a lot of me and my buddy talking about what might actually stick to sandstone or how a loosey bolt isn't really gonna pop out if I top step on it (even if I irrationally think it might because I'd deck).  Not super relevant to trad climbing, anymore than setting up weird tr/lead rope systems is.

In the end, following good folks and leading stuff (doesn't even have to be too easy to fall on if the pro isn't tricky) is by far the easiest and safest thing to do.  

That doesn't seem to be "the old school way", that just seems like what everyone eventually ends up doing because in the long term it's unavoidable.

Collin Hwrote:

I wouldn’t want to try that with a dynamic rope for the fixed line. I know people often TR solo on dynamic fixed ropes, but this seems quite a bit worse. If a piece ripped, you’d have an ordinary lead fall with the stretch in your lead rope, plus the distance from the blown piece to the closest backup knot, plus the stretch in the entire length of the fixed line between you and the anchor with the force of a lead fall. That could end up being a massive fall in situations where it shouldn’t be

Wait.  What?  Since he could fall some distance before the back up rope catches, he should use a static rope?   Ouch!

Greg Dwrote:

Wait.  What?  Since he could fall some distance before the back up rope catches, he should use a static rope?  Yeah, that makes sense if you want a trip to the ER.  Ouch!

There are two different ropes being discussed: the fixed rope with a series of knots being clipped for backup, and the lead rope the climber ties into and leads on. Of course the lead rope needs to be dynamic, and I probably could/should have been a bit clearer about that. I was just trying to explain why the fixed rope should be static.

You wouldn’t want a bunch of extra stretch from the fixed line on top of the rope stretch you’re already getting from the lead rope. That’s just extra fall distance (and abrasion where the fixed rope rubs against the rock, particularly at the edge). You’d ideally want the fixed rope to behave like a series of bolts you clip into, staying in place rather than moving with you to further soften the fall. 

Greg D wrote:

No need to clarify. I’m already clear what you are saying.

The stretch in the lead rope becomes somewhat irrelevant if a piece of gear blows. That means he would be falling some distance on to a static rope.  Let’s say the back up knots are 8 feet apart.  That means there is potential to fall 8 feet on to static rope.  

Give that a try.  Let me know how that works out. 

Facepalm in 3, 2...

Gunkiemikewrote:

Facepalm in 3, 2...

Feel free to elaborate.  

I'm happy to admit if I missed something.