More People Should Lead

Obviously, if you're a staunch traditionalist, you should be going ground up.

That said, climbers should be lead climbing more across the disciplines. The primary benefit of top roping is to remove the fear element—but I think this has gone too far. I often see climbers who are strong enough to send a route spend far too long working it on top rope. If they simply led more often, they’d waste far less time, as their fear management would naturally improve. Not to mention, someone still has to hang the top rope for them…

There absolutely is a place for top roping, I just don't know that the practice should be so wide spread.

What are your thoughts? 

I guess this point is valid since you led the dawn wall, I will discuss.

I love climbing, I love leading, but I also enjoy top roping. But I will get bored if I just top rope. The end

I know I should lead more. I don't have an opinion about what anyone else should do. 

Soft Catches and The Hard Truthwrote:

Obviously, if you're a staunch traditionalist, you should be going ground up.

That said, climbers should be lead climbing more across the disciplines. The primary benefit of top roping is to remove the fear element—but I think this has gone too far. I often see climbers who are strong enough to send a route spend far too long working it on top rope. If they simply led more often, they’d waste far less time, as their fear management would naturally improve. Not to mention, someone still has to hang the top rope for them…

There absolutely is a place for top roping, I just don't know that the practice should be so wide spread.

What are your thoughts? 

someone still has to give a great lead belay....

More people should just solo. Save everyone the bother.

Okay, a real answer?

Yes. I am capable of leading. But, for me? It's the climbing. Not the clipping, not the gear placing, not any of the extraneous crap that comes along with it, even including tying into a rope at all. My most suitable climbing style would likely be deep water solo, honestly, but there's a severe lack of oceans where I live.

So.

Pretty much everyone I climb with, not only likes to lead, the climb doesn't even really "count" for them, if they don't lead it themselves. 

They lead. I let them. Since there's a rope just hanging there, (usually my rope), I sometimes tie in and climb the thing. Or the adjacent route. Or anything in striking distance that looks interesting, route or no route, or pieces of several routes, or the old gear line that never gets climbed anymore....

Works out just fine. 

H.

Top roping is awesome. Safe, efficient, chill, relaxing, fun, and allows me to get more pitches in in a day than if I led every single pitch I climbed.

Who cares how other people climb.

Is it annoying when you show up to a new area and a party is TR death banging a route for hours and hours and hours on end and you never get to jump on it? (happened to me yesterday) Yeah, it is. But that’s a different discussion. 

Everyone defines being a climber differently, and that's ok. 

I don't believe someone is a true trad climber if they never take falls on gear. I don't believe people who clip bolts and refuse to fall are real climbers either. To me, you're just pretending if you're not able to get over your own fear of falling. Does that make me right? Nope.

Part of how I define being a climber is the ability to not just lead, but to lead at and above your limit (whatever it may be), and to be able to face your fear, get past it, and continue on. Does that mean that's the only definition of what being a climber is? Nope.

Should people lead more often? In my opinion, yes. Should people push themselves and take falls more often when it's safe to do so? In my opinion, yes. Does my opinion matter at all? Nope!

So long as people are out there enjoying themselves and not impacting others or the environment in a negative way, who am I to say that their definition of climbing and their approach to it is wrong? Live and let live. Choose climbing partners who share your views, and let people do their thing. At the end of the day, none of it matters anyway so just go out and have a good time - however you define it.  

For someone named Hard Truth your truths are surprisingly bland. Come on, give us the real stuff!

As someone who can't be bothered to stand up or pay attention whilst belaying, I always encourage my partners to top rope. It's much safer for them and less hassle for me.

Aaron Kolbwrote:

For someone named Hard Truth your truths are surprisingly bland. Come on, give us the real stuff!

I am also waiting for this new account to live up to the moniker they’ve chosen for themselves. Seems a shame to let such a reasonably good handle go to such (so far) mediocre truths…

But we all start somewhere ;) 

I really enjoy leading and want to lead almost everything, but every once in a while I'll top rope something and notice how much more I can focus on movement and pushing just the climbing/fitness aspect. I could probably benefit from doing it more.

I'll just leave this here for all you Top Rope Tough Guys.

https://youtu.be/LM_2Q_JPX8E?si=DKoUwovethRBVyh-

Opinions and buttholes...

Old lady Hwrote:

someone still has to give a great lead belay....

More people should just solo. Save everyone the bother.

Okay, a real answer?

Yes. I am capable of leading. But, for me? It's the climbing. Not the clipping, not the gear placing, not any of the extraneous crap that comes along with it, even including tying into a rope at all. My most suitable climbing style would likely be deep water solo, honestly, but there's a severe lack of oceans where I live.

So.

Pretty much everyone I climb with, not only likes to lead, the climb doesn't even really "count" for them, if they don't lead it themselves. 

They lead. I let them. Since there's a rope just hanging there, (usually my rope), I sometimes tie in and climb the thing. Or the adjacent route. Or anything in striking distance that looks interesting, route or no route, or pieces of several routes, or the old gear line that never gets climbed anymore....

Works out just fine. 

H.

I respect this take, given you’re with friends and they plan to lead the route anyways. It’d be really cool if you discuss it ahead of time and all parties are on board.

IMO I would perceive it as rude if I showed up to the crag with a new partner, and then they told me to lead all the routes for them and setup a toprope. I’m cool with doing favors for friends, but if you’re always doing favors then that can take away from your own climbing goals.

People should lead because pulling on the frictiony gym top rope aggravates my climber's elbow 

Lead, follow, or get out the top rope. 

Hard Truth:

Tina Turner and Rod Stewart had the exact same voice. One used it for good, the other for evil.

You get belayed by a *partner*? Ok, I guess that's fine -- if you're not hardcore enough to lead rope solo. If you consider yourself to be a Real Climber you really ought to learn how to climb without depending on somebody else to save you from falling.

No matter how cool you've convinced yourself you are, there's always somebody else who's gonna low key shit on you for not being as cool as they think they are.

.....

EDIT: I just saw you other post... It all makes sense now.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/201419698/insecure-climbers

Soft Catches and The Hard Truthwrote:

Obviously, if you're a staunch traditionalist, you should be going ground up.

That said, climbers should be lead climbing more across the disciplines. The primary benefit of top roping is to remove the fear element—but I think this has gone too far. I often see climbers who are strong enough to send a route spend far too long working it on top rope. If they simply led more often, they’d waste far less time, as their fear management would naturally improve. Not to mention, someone still has to hang the top rope for them…

There absolutely is a place for top roping, I just don't know that the practice should be so wide spread.

What are your thoughts? 

If I can't lead a route, I'll find an easier one that I can lead. If there are no routes easy enough to lead, I'm at the wrong crag. I do make exceptions at Indian Creek, but only in the first week while building power. After that, I lead, but french free or hang dog in order to get to the parts that I can lead. I agree with the OP that top roping has become the norm, and it ties up routes that bolder people would like to lead. Top roping also causes a lot of problems at shared anchors. Rope under load burning other ropes is unsafe.

People think you can't learn to climb without top roping. This isn't true. You just have to find super easy routes. They might not be at the crag your friends take you to, but this means you have the wrong friends.

If you are going to set up top ropes for beginners, at least do it at an out of the way crag. I realize my opinions are very old school and top ropers are the main reality at most areas. The only solution for those of us who like to lead is to get up earlier, walk further, or climb multi pitch where the TR madness can't happen.

I've got a couple friends who used to fight me for leads. Now they prefer to top rope. Go figure. 

Soft Catches and The Hard Truthwrote:

Obviously, if you're a staunch traditionalist, you should be going ground up.

There absolutely is a place for top roping.

Oh I think this is a perfect opportunity to share my recent onsight gear lead adventure - which was also on toprope at the very same time!

Here is the award winning photo of this event:

I say this is award winning because it was taken by my partner Skip while she was simultaneously belaying me on lead and toprope! That is talent!

I suppose it would help if I explain what is going on.  We had spent the AM climbing (a gear route with a stick-clipped piton start), a bonus TR route from the same anchors, and a sport route (with some draw-hanging shenanigans), plus redoing the sport route by a different line that made more sense, on TR. It was getting hot but to squeeze in one more route I remembered a sport route in a nearby corridor that gave shade to the belayer.  It's not on MP or in the guidebook, but I vaguely remember doing it before and thinking it was 8+. So we went there and I led it again.   This time I noticed an easy looking left-diagonalling crack ten feet to the left that looked like it terminated at the same ledge as the openshuts for the sport route.  The crack was calling to me but it was impossible to tell if the rock was total kitty litter.  Since we had a 70M rope and the other route was only about 55 feet long, I stayed on TR for the sport route and led up the crack on the other end of the rope. I led it as if there was no toprope, placing gear the way I would if I had no idea what grade or rock quality was yet to come. Since I indeed did not. So much fun! The rock was indeed a bit crappy, but the route went at about 5.5.  It wouldn't surprise me if whoever put in the sport route had soloed this line to get to the ledge to put in the shuts.

I lead all the time but I'm happy to TR stuff for the challenge.  I prefer not to fall these days.  I'm not afraid of falling per se, I've fallen plenty in the past, but I've gotten broken enough with falling that I don't want to get broke no more.  It takes too long to heal and my time on the earth is not long enough anymore to devote 6 months to healing an injury.

phylp phylpwrote:

I lead all the time but I'm happy to TR stuff for the challenge.  I prefer not to fall these days.  I'm not afraid of falling per se, I've fallen plenty in the past, but I've gotten broken enough with falling that I don't want to get broke no more.  It takes too long to heal and my time on the earth is not long enough anymore to devote 6 months to healing an injury.

I'm with you on that, unless it's overhanging terrain I avoid it myself . The interesting thing about that is overhanging rock is harder to TR anyways, might as well lead it.

Following is a good way to get acquainted with a style and its technique. You will make higher risk moves to learn better technique on top rope than you would leading that 40 foot runout techy slabby face that might send you to the afterlife if you start getting too pretty with it.