New and experienced climbers over 50 #38

Emil Briggs wrote:

I agree it's unlikely anyone who engages in online political discussions is going to change their views as a result of said discussions. But that's true of opinion writers, talk show guests, podcasters etc. The interactions can still serve a useful purpose to inform people who aren't as politically involved, but sometimes those same people want to avoid discussions because they can become divisive. I understand this but suspect it arises because such people don't think they will personally be affected much. For me that insight into their character is valuable. 

Nope. And frankly I'm a bit offended by the characterization. I care deeply about our current political situation, and my conscience has forced me to get involved in real life (as i have written about here).  But I just don't see any purpose in reading arguments on the subject here. Get out and do something or STFU. I come here for real insights into real people's lives. Especially around climbing, but other things too. Some of the political discourse here is well thought out, some is just talking points, but nearly none of it is talking about lived experience. So whether i agree with your talking points or not, it's just a lot of hot air. 

Furthermore, while i am fine just skipping over it, i know some others are not. I have personally spoken to one long time well respected poster here who left because they actually care deeply about it, and reading all this just makes them feel lousy. As opposed to your characterization, they too said they try to do real things in the real world to make it a better place. 

Go reread that article in climbing magazine that talks about this over 50 thread to remind yourself about what has made this a great place for the better part of ten years.  Ask yourself if the recent political arguments fit that article's characterization. To my mind they have done far more harm than good (as was predicted by a number of thoughtful posters like RGold).  There will never be a consensus to stop doing it, though. Instead, if it doesn't stop, everyone else will drift away and there will be a smaller and smaller cohort here that either likes it or doesn't have the discipline to stop. And as people drift away there will be less real content and more trolling, driving still more people away. 

Not a great prospect, IMHO.  I would rather encourage folks to  avoid the topic unless they have something personal to add. 

Cheers, 

GO

Overhanging flared chimney in Arizona. Hardest  on sight trad first ascent I ever did, a few years ago.  Alaskan Pipeline, some kind of 5.11.  

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

What the politards…

Is it ok to use the term ‘politard’ now? Just askin’…

Gabe, you make a compelling point.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

What the politards fail to recognize and understand is this: this forum is not a political talking head show. You are not providing any service here to anyone, except yourself. I certainly don't come here to read any of yalls political thoughts - ever. 

You got it correct, my man.

On another note: Off Width- if you can’t do it, someday you will be hosed. Probably up high on some mountain.

When I was “young” I did seek them out. Pratt’s Crack was a goal - I put everything on the line to get that one. Achieved an out of body experience.

People today, that seek out the OW, are truly bad ass IMHO. That’s aimed at you Fossil by the way.

@Dragons…. Thank you for the climbing information and photos. When I’ve climbed at Gunks I’m amazed at the quality of the “easy climbs”. Makes me want to buy an airplane ticket- after Columbus Day.

@Jan…. The only real disagreement we have is this: what exactly is 18 inches? Time to buy a ruler. Lol 

After Jan left I climbed for a solid week with EE, following him around left me wrecked. But 48 hours, flat on my back, eating pain killers, fixed me up.
So we are headed out today for more fun n games.
#addicted to the game 

edit to add: Gabe very well said. 

GabeO wrote:

Ha!  I'd say I'm smart enough to hand the rack to my Western partners when the next pitch is wide.

Dragons, I'd say "wide" starts at offwidth and goes up from there.  So yes, chimneys are considered "wide".  Though no-one would say you're a wide oficcionado unless you can claw yourself up an OW that is too wide for fists and too narrow for knees. 

Sad to hear about Ron O.  I climbed with him once or twice.  He was fun, a prolific FAist in the desert, and a real character.  He will be greatly missed.

GO

When climbing a wide crack I place my #6 or #5 as soon as possible so the my second has the pleasure of carrying them up. 

GabeO wrote:

Nope. And frankly I'm a bit offended by the characterization. I care deeply about our current political situation, and my conscience has forced me to get involved in real life (as i have written about here).  But I just don't see any purpose in reading arguments on the subject here. Get out and do something or STFU. I come here for real insights into real people's lives. Especially around climbing, but other things too. Some of the political discourse here is well thought out, some is just talking points, but nearly none of it is talking about lived experience. So whether i agree with your talking points or not, it's just a lot of hot air. 

Furthermore, while i am fine just skipping over it, i know some others are not. I have personally spoken to one long time well respected poster here who left because they actually care deeply about it, and reading all this just makes them feel lousy. As opposed to your characterization, they too said they try to do real things in the real world to make it a better place. 

Go reread that article in climbing magazine that talks about this over 50 thread to remind yourself about what has made this a great place for the better part of ten years.  Ask yourself if the recent political arguments fit that article's characterization. To my mind they have done far more harm than good (as was predicted by a number of thoughtful posters like RGold).  There will never be a consensus to stop doing it, though. Instead, if it doesn't stop, everyone else will drift away and there will be a smaller and smaller cohort here that either likes it or doesn't have the discipline to stop. And as people drift away there will be less real content and more trolling, driving still more people away. 

Not a great prospect, IMHO.  I would rather encourage folks to  avoid the topic unless they have something personal to add. 

Cheers, 

GO

I think my first post into this thread was a wise ass comment towards a Aussie commenting on US politics - we actually figured out we were both vets and had far more in common that not.

I've lived abroad and traveled abroad to a lot of places, many that nobody willingly wants to go to, and maintained an oath of office for 25 yrs.  My world view based on that lived experience is more conservative than most. That being said y'all can have the politics here.  The moment you don't subscribe to, or question the dogma, you better have your metaphorical kit ready because the TDS machine guns start.

Enjoy the coastal big cities (I've lived in a couple, Boston and Miami specifically...my Boston Rocks (1st edition) is literally held together with a rubber band and middle son lives north of LA), but don't also try to defend the hell scape that major sections of them have become, what policies caused it, or expect the rest of the country to want to be "ruled by" or emulate what's going on there.

I'm sure it's fine...  

Well.. that last zinger almost made me respond. (the 'dts' comment) 

If I may, this thread has changed a lot, as I guess with 38,000 posts that could be expected.  Most of the original gang has moved on. Many have written to me personally saying the politics is a turn off and not worth plowing through.  I was hoping that there was room here for whatever came up.

Initially I just wanted to talk about climbing with other climbers, specifically those who were older and reach out for support and tips. And also to get to know the colorful personalities that made for some of the best climbers ever.  I'm really enjoying getting to know fossil, and Cherokee. And John Gill!   

I have always written first person, tried to keep it to "I" statements, and appreciative. What has meant the world to me are the personal relationships developed here which is a tall order when it all happens on line--but I think we have mostly succeeded. Carl was with us almost from the start, with his poetry, and seasonal blues and his trips and vacation pictures.  I really felt it when Guy had his last surgery, and he was desperately wanting to get back out on the rock--and now he has, and when his wife was in the hospital for some time, we were all worried. My day stopped short when Helen wrote a heartbreaking post about coming home after an afternoon of bouldering to find her husband had passed away.  She and I connected on losing a loved one to addiction. Jan's gardens, and also his routes here in Josh. (and his trek up Bachar Yurian). Wendy's check ins, Bruce's ongoing problems... paralleling Tony's. Rgold has peeked in from time to time to hold forth with some deep wisdom, especially as it regards being an aging climber.  There's been a lot of teasing and spoofing among us.... something you can only really do with friends who trust you mean well.  I REALLY appreciated Erika, our resident PT, who came with the goods on various rehab issues.  Nick, Isa and Hugi. 

Maybe this group has just grown too large to keep that tone. (?)  I have often laughed at the 'cross-talk'... a thing you cannot do in AA and Al Anon... just conversation going in many directions at once. But it would be crazy to try to acknowledge every post...   And not everyone wants to get close and personal.  

---

But lastly... I am so grateful for the advice and wisdom I have received here, from veteran climbers who graciously took the time to offer from their experience.  Everything from finding wider climbing shoes, navigating skills, to 'get your butt in, Lori', 'nose over toes', the best routes, campsites, places to go, Kris' thoughts on Pilates and Lifting and blue flowers... even something as casual as whether to mess with the striped snake I recently encountered.  And satisfying my endless curiosity about routes here... most recently Tonic Boom.  I appreciate it all.  And the stories. 

This thread discusses a wide range of topics that often go far beyond climbing, from health issues to tomatoes. On one hand, it's a shame that politics engender such a negative response in many people (though fairly understandable as to why), because discussing such things with people of this kind of life experience is of much more interest to me than a bunch of Gen Z'ers or most Millenials. And the fact is, that while many find political discussions to be anathema to this thread, there are also many that find it acceptable and participate regularly.

So it is what it is. Going forward, I'm inclined to modify my approach to the extent that I will generally refrain from introducing or initiating a political comment, but I will likely continue to periodically participate in a discussion that is initiated by someone else. Those that have a zero tolerance for such discussions won't find this entirely satisfying, but this strategy is intended to at least not be the source of such discussions, for whatever that's worth.

fossil wrote:

Thanks for the responses to my query.

Edit for Lori,

Here's a fist crack I put up called Cruel Fister, somehow I think you wouldn't like it much.

  

Oh my.  Look at that.  How tall is that, fossill?  100+ feet?  

I was going to make a crack about your masochistic tendencies... and looking at Bob's finger crack picture, I just want to say "What is wrong with you guys?"   

But this looks really fun.  And it underscores some of my own difficult decision-making here.  I've been looking at cracks everywhere these last few days.  They're everywhere.  And I do sometimes dive in and tackle one.  But it's an acquired skill, right?  And takes a special strength.  

Here's a little crack.  Hated it.    

This is the one downside of starting climbing so late in life.  I'm aware of time and what I can/should  focus on where I would actually have a chance of succeeding.  It was hard for me to decide to work on some dihedrals here... that may sound strange.  But, you know, another whole skill set. 

A crack I bumped into yesterday.  That start is probably a bummer.  

Lori Milas wrote:

But this looks really fun.  And it underscores some of my own difficult decision-making here.  I've been looking at cracks everywhere these last few days.  They're everywhere.  And I do sometimes dive in and tackle one.  But it's an acquired skill, right?  And takes a special strength.  

Here's a little crack.  Hated it.    

This is the one downside of starting climbing so late in life.  I'm aware of time and what I can/should  focus on where I would actually have a chance of succeeding.  It was hard for me to decide to work on some dihedrals here... that may sound strange.  But, you know, another whole skill set. 

A crack I bumped into yesterday.  That start is probably a bummer.  

Lori, just be aware that learning crack climbing will be like learning to climb from the beginning all over again. Except with more bruising and abrasions. Maybe not the easiest with an older body with thinner skin, but if you have your heart set on it, as we know, it's never too late to start learning. 

Cheers, 

Gabe (longtime lover of cracks) O

I did some informal bone density testing last week I also had a buck run out of the forest and run into my car while I was creeping along in traffic.  The car was functionally fine, the buck looked ok, I went looking for it, saw no blood and no deer  It did shake me up and I spent the day mostly as a pad caddie for my friend.  I hope the bucks ok. 

Well, come to think of it, we did climb this bolted off-width in France, not too long ago. It had an old school 5+ (5.9) grade: a bit stout compared to the 6a's nearby. The rock is good quartzite, but It would have been tricky to protect with gear, that's for sure, 

Lori Milas wrote:

Well.. that last zinger almost made me respond. (the 'dts' comment) 

If I may, this thread has changed a lot, as I guess with 38,000 posts that could be expected.  Most of the original gang has moved on. Many have written to me personally saying the politics is a turn off and not worth plowing through.  I was hoping that there was room here for whatever came up.

Initially I just wanted to talk about climbing with other climbers, specifically those who were older and reach out for support and tips. And also to get to know the colorful personalities that made for some of the best climbers ever.  I'm really enjoying getting to know fossil, and Cherokee. And John Gill!   

I have always written first person, tried to keep it to "I" statements, and appreciative. What has meant the world to me are the personal relationships developed here which is a tall order when it all happens on line--but I think we have mostly succeeded. Carl was with us almost from the start, with his poetry, and seasonal blues and his trips and vacation pictures.  I really felt it when Guy had his last surgery, and he was desperately wanting to get back out on the rock--and now he has, and when his wife was in the hospital for some time, we were all worried. My day stopped short when Helen wrote a heartbreaking post about coming home after an afternoon of bouldering to find her husband had passed away.  She and I connected on losing a loved one to addiction. Jan's gardens, and also his routes here in Josh. (and his trek up Bachar Yurian). Wendy's check ins, Bruce's ongoing problems... paralleling Tony's. Rgold has peeked in from time to time to hold forth with some deep wisdom, especially as it regards being an aging climber.  There's been a lot of teasing and spoofing among us.... something you can only really do with friends who trust you mean well.  I REALLY appreciated Erika, our resident PT, who came with the goods on various rehab issues.  Nick, Isa and Hugi. 

Maybe this group has just grown too large to keep that tone. (?)  I have often laughed at the 'cross-talk'... a thing you cannot do in AA and Al Anon... just conversation going in many directions at once. But it would be crazy to try to acknowledge every post...   And not everyone wants to get close and personal.  

---

But lastly... I am so grateful for the advice and wisdom I have received here, from veteran climbers who graciously took the time to offer from their experience.  Everything from finding wider climbing shoes, navigating skills, to 'get your butt in, Lori', 'nose over toes', the best routes, campsites, places to go, Kris' thoughts on Pilates and Lifting and blue flowers... even something as casual as whether to mess with the striped snake I recently encountered.  And satisfying my endless curiosity about routes here... most recently Tonic Boom.  I appreciate it all.  And the stories. 

How about everyone making a commitment to stick to climbing and closely related subjects.  Avoid politics completely and also consider avoiding lifestyle comments unless related to climbing.

this thread has always been about lifestyle.. I dont want any rules. Just got pissed at a few folks who seemed to have only come here to argue politics. 

Ditto. I'm not here to make commitments to other people's rules

For me... older (thin skin) + cracks of any kind = crack gloves. Sometimes I wear them even if there are no obvious cracks on a route, for two reasons: 1) I have accidentally bumped the back of my hand on a projection and cut it open, and 2) sometimes one single hand jam will magically appear out of nowhere on a slab/face route--and it usually happens in sharp, cheese grater limestone, and (of course) when I forgot my crack gloves.

Said, "hola" to Chris Sharma the other day as he walked by in his gym outside Barcelona. ; )   He doesn't know me from the Man on the Moon, but next time I see him I'll poke a finger in his chest and ask him why he hasn't set up a nice selection of cracks (fingers to chimney-sized) on the empty back wall. Ha! 

As to politics, I don't really mind it that much. It is what it is. I read or skim through it and move on. I will say two things, though... first, ad hominem attacks are really not cool and do nothing for your cause and, second, I would highly suggest getting informed (from multiple, quality sources) and also getting involved locally in the political game in whatever way you can. What's going on really is a big deal. And check on your registration and vote in every election.

OK, back to cracks... (Anyone remember the "Just say 'No' to crack!" poster from BITD... you know, the one showing the classic plumber's butt crack? Apologies to plumbers...; ).

GabeO wrote:

Lori, just be aware that learning crack climbing will be like learning to climb from the beginning all over again. Except with more bruising and abrasions. Maybe not the easiest with an older body with thinner skin, but if you have your heart set on it, as we know, it's never too late to start learning. 

Cheers, 

Gabe (longtime lover of cracks) O

Thanks, Gabe.  There are a lot of cracks here in Joshua Tree... but I suffer emotional trauma each time I climb one.    

I am up to my shoulder in Double Cross.  Some day I'd like to do it again.  

Here was a little primer from Nelson on climbing Double Cross.  He did it much better.    

When I have mentioned REALLY learning to crack climb, Bob has said sure... 'fine with me if you want to take the next 2-3 years climbing all the cracks here in the park. That's what it will take to feel proficient."  No.  I really don't. 

apogee wrote:

This thread discusses a wide range of topics that often go far beyond climbing, from health issues to tomatoes. On one hand, it's a shame that politics engender such a negative response in many people (though fairly understandable as to why), because discussing such things with people of this kind of life experience is of much more interest to me than a bunch of Gen Z'ers or most Millenials. And the fact is, that while many find political discussions to be anathema to this thread, there are also many that find it acceptable and participate regularly.

So it is what it is. Going forward, I'm inclined to modify my approach to the extent that I will generally refrain from introducing or initiating a political comment, but I will likely continue to periodically participate in a discussion that is initiated by someone else. Those that have a zero tolerance for such discussions won't find this entirely satisfying, but this strategy is intended to at least not be the source of such discussions, for whatever that's worth.

As a final observation on this topic I have a friend, a bit older than me, who was born in what was then East Germany a few years after WW2. Her family escaped to the west right before the Berlin wall went up. Her description of what life was like makes it clear how fortunate we are to still be able to have arguments about whether we should talk about politics in this forum. People with kids wouldn't even talk about politics in their own homes because your child repeating something in front of the wrong person could see you imprisoned, tortured or killed by the Stasi.

From ancient times. The summer of 1956 I worked for the Forest Service out of Bend, Oregon. Here I am standing atop Diamond Peak in the Cascades after a grueling five mile hike in to the mountain. The second photo is me scrambling up the north face of Mt Thielsen . 

Carry on with political ranting, but I will pay attention when something positive is proposed, like "Joe Smith would make an excellent Democratic candidate because. . . .," or "Here is what I am initiating for the local Democratic Party . . ."

Signed, The Senior member of the Democratic Party on this thread (registered 1958). 

I am going to dissent on the muffling of political comments. This is a wide open forum and I appreciate that we can voice our opinions if we choose to do so.  I try and understand where people are coming from and reading various angles of discourse from a broad spectrum helps me with my understanding.  While I am way to the left of Keesee, he and I go way back and I respect him and his opinions.  
I like the climbing banter better though.  I can climb wide cracks… just don’t love em.