Black Diamond Infinity Cord

I handled one of these yesterday, it was significantly stiffer than a nylon sling. I'm curious how the field testers above racked theirs - the 'twist-it-a-bunch-of-times' approach I use for nylon slings doesn't seem like it would work well for these. 

Mr Rogerswrote:

Damn it Ben. They aren't scrambling to catch up FFS. They could have done it whenever they wanted.....but they know their base is not gonna pay $60 for a sling not matter how nice. lets be honest, a seam doesn't really cause that huge of a problem to deal with.
They are not going to pay humans to hand splice slings....they need machines to handle most of the work load.
Making $60 slings is not a good way to make money for companies like BD. Economy of scale.
The juice is not worth the squeeze until the process is made efficient for both COG and creation. Who knows how long it took to re tool their existing machines, or to have new machines made.
Your seamless technology made slings are excellent, but the value is absolutely lost on me every way you've tried to spin it.
For those with butt loads of disposable income, Zartmann Rigging has got your items, and you'll probably be happy with them for sure. Nice kit and fine work by Ben. The Moncler of the sling world.
In the end you're gonna have to retire them in the same amount of time as any other sling more or less, but at 4-7x the price each time for something that does the exact same thing as the cheaper one...I just can't.

Your shocking language notwithstanding, this is a very nice post.  It's exactly the reason Sterling didn't want to collaborate when I showed my slings to them, explained splicing, and we broke samples on their machine.  I don't think BD "could have done it whenever they wanted," though.  It's not an intuitive thing, and I'll bet they never thought about seamless slings before I sent them a packet of samples in 2021.  They didn't even write back, but here you see them scrambling to figure it out.  Could have done it sooner if they had just reached out when I tried to contact them......

Your last sentence is wrong, thougn, I think: they'll last longer because the load-bearing strands are protected by a UV-coated dyneema cover.  No reason to retire, ever, until the cover wears through.

Ben, spliced dyneema stem UL C4's came out in 2016, with a couple of years of R&D it's more likely they thought about using splicing in climbing goods for close to a decade before you contacted them. Hell, I posted on here close to a decade ago about splicing an eye to eye cordellete. Information on splicing isn't hard to understand, it's readily accessible, and as a technique, dates back thousands of years. You've not done anything new. 

Ben Zartmanwrote:

Your shocking language notwithstanding, this is a very nice post.  It's exactly the reason Sterling didn't want to collaborate when I showed my slings to them, explained splicing, and we broke samples on their machine.  I don't think BD "could have done it whenever they wanted," though.  It's not an intuitive thing, and I'll bet they never thought about seamless slings before I sent them a packet of samples in 2021.  They didn't even write back, but here you see them scrambling to figure it out.  Could have done it sooner if they had just reached out when I tried to contact them......

Your last sentence is wrong, thougn, I think: they'll last longer because the load-bearing strands are protected by a UV-coated dyneema cover.  No reason to retire, ever, until the cover wears through.

Having actually been a part of the process, I can assure that "scrambling" isn't remotely accurate in describing the development process for this product. 

No one is playing "catch up" with you Ben. I'd genuinely be surprised if you're on BD's radar at all. You're doing one thing, and they are doing something else. There's little to no relation between the two, and no need for one to talk badly about the other. Looking at the development timeline of the UL Camalots, the evidence is there to believe that someone at BD likely thought of seamless slings before you... 

Tyler Moodywrote:

I handled one of these yesterday, it was significantly stiffer than a nylon sling. I'm curious how the field testers above racked theirs - the 'twist-it-a-bunch-of-times' approach I use for nylon slings doesn't seem like it would work well for these. 

I usually triple or quadruple mine and then tie an overhand or 8 in the middle to rack them. I tend to do this with slings as well though. I hate twisting stuff up because some materials get a memory and it frustrates me. 

I just compared my infinity sling to a Blue Ice 10mm dyneema sling and there isn't too much of a difference in stiffness. Maybe my infinity slings are really broken in at this point though? I don't remember them being really stiff when I got them.

The BD Ultralight Camalot uses a continuous loop of braided Dyneema for its stem, not a spliced cord. As does BlueIce for their slings.

rocknice2wrote:

The BD Ultralight Camalot uses a continuous loop of braided Dyneema for its stem, not a spliced cord. As does BlueIce for their slings.

No, it's a splice. hownot2 did a factory visit and everything where they talk about it. Others on here have also taken it apart. 

Ask your self, how do you have a continuous braided loop without splicing? The reason spansets work because they use 1000s of aligned fibres wrapped around clockwise and anticlockwise. Interfibre friction and general entanglement is why the whole thing doesn't just fall apart. 

that guy named sebwrote:

Ben, spliced dyneema stem ULC4's came out in 2016, with a couple of years of R&D it's more likely they thought about using splicing in climbing goods for close to a decade before you contacted them. Hell, I posted on here close to a decade ago about splicing an eye to eye cordellete. Information on splicing isn't hard to understand, it's readily accessible, and as a technique, dates back thousands of years. You've not done anything new. 

Sure, splicing has been on the climbing radar for a while--I'm not claiming I invented it!  But the specific covered loops with a spliced selvagee inside were a jealously guarded secret even in the sailboat rigging world until very recently, and the blank stares they generated at Sterling persuades me that climbing companies had not yet gone down that particular road.  I'm not claiming their invention, regardless of what people keep saying: my claim is that I produced the first UIAA-certified slings of this kind with this method, and that they still surpass any other currently available slings in strength-to-weight and slimness considerations.

As for BD ultralights--I took one apart recently, and the splice had really short buries and no proper taper.  Still stronger than the rest of the cam, so mission accomplished.

As for BD ultralights--I took one apart recently, and the splice had really short buries and no proper taper.  Still stronger than the rest of the cam, so mission accomplished.

How many fids of bury did it have?  Some might not understand stand that Ben’s slings have the ends of the core strands spliced together, the Infinity type don’t, there are more of them so harder to pull apart, with the cover just containing them.

This is an example of massed produced hitch cords, still made by hand, but not as nice as Ben’s.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

Your shocking language notwithstanding, this is a very nice post.  It's exactly the reason Sterling didn't want to collaborate when I showed my slings to them, explained splicing, and we broke samples on their machine.  I don't think BD "could have done it whenever they wanted," though.  It's not an intuitive thing, and I'll bet they never thought about seamless slings before I sent them a packet of samples in 2021.  They didn't even write back, but here you see them scrambling to figure it out.  

They didnt write back because it was likely incredibly obvious that for their business it would be a silly choice no matter how awesome the gear is.
And as has been stated in countless other threads, there is always a undertone of ego in your posts that just irks.

Could have done it sooner if they had just reached out when I tried to contact them......

 They are not splicing here as I really hope you understand....so how are you imagining you could have helped them get there sooner....polyester round slings have been around since the 70's which their product basically is.
I'm gonna go with you do not have the machines to make a continous filment round slings, or I bet you would be. I posture this is exactly why they went that direction, a machine can make it so they dont have to charge an egregious amount as the COG makes enough sense.

Your last sentence is wrong, thougn, I think: they'll last longer because the load-bearing strands are protected by a UV-coated dyneema cover.  No reason to retire, ever, until the cover wears through.

I don't disagree, but this isnt about true life of a product. Just like we well know a rope that has been sitting in a bin for 15 years is gonna more than likely be fine.... Its liability (and piece of mind for the consumer).
There is a reason there is a shelf life on soft goods in the climbing and WAH space and its not because it's a hard line, the gear is handeling live loads, not a sail or peice of equipment, it's to close the door on litigation in case something does go sideways.
You may want to put that 10yr lifespan note on your products too, the big boys legal / risk managment team did that hard work for ya.
Copy, paste, so you wont rue the day.

Brockywrote:

As for BD ultralights--I took one apart recently, and the splice had really short buries and no proper taper.  Still stronger than the rest of the cam, so mission accomplished.

How many fids of bury did it have?  Some might not understand stand that Ben’s slings have the ends of the core strands spliced together, the Infinity type don’t, there are more of them so harder to pull apart, with the cover just containing them.

This is an example of massed produced hitch cords, still made by hand, but not as nice as Ben’s.

It was less than one fid bury on each tail, with a machine lock-stitch at the crossover.

Mr Rogerswrote:

They didnt write back because it was likely incredibly obvious that for their business it would be a silly choice no matter how awesome the gear is.
And as has been stated in countless other threads, there is always a undertone of ego in your posts that just irks.

 They are not splicing here as I really hope you understand....so how are you imagining you could have helped them get there sooner....polyester round slings have been around since the 70's which their product basically is.
I'm gonna go with you do not have the machines to make a continous filment round slings, or I bet you would be. I posture this is exactly why they went that direction, a machine can make it so they dont have to charge an egregious amount as the COG makes enough sense.

I don't disagree, but this isnt about true life of a product. Just like we well know a rope that has been sitting in a bin for 15 years is gonna more than likely be fine.... Its liability (and piece of mind for the consumer).
There is a reason there is a shelf life on soft goods in the climbing and WAH space and its not because it's a hard line, the gear is handeling live loads, not a sail or peice of equipment, it's to close the door on litigation in case something does go sideways.
You may want to put that 10yr lifespan note on your products too, the big boys legal / risk managment team did that hard work for ya.
Copy, paste, so you wont rue the day.

It's always difficult to convey nuance when trying to be brief on an online forum.  The confident assertion of an expert opinion can be mistaken for ego, especially by those who imagine others to be like themselves.  It is not ego, however, to state that BD could have gotten to a quality seamless product quicker if they had accepted my offer to collaborate.  They got to it by other means, years later, with a product that is heavier (210g V 54g for a triple-length), bulkier, and weaker(22kN V 24kN), because it uses a different, though cheaper, method.

I'm not interested in making continuous filament slings, because they are not better.  I'd rather make less sales with the best product than more sales with a second-tier offering.  I'll probably die poor in consequence, but I've been preparing for that my whole life.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

The confident assertion of an expert opinion can be mistaken for ego, especially by those who imagine others to be like themselves.  

My head would be too big to fit through doorways if I believed this about myself, real or imagined. How could I not quote this legendary sentence right here 

Ben Zartmanwrote:

The confident assertion of an expert opinion... with a product that is heavier (210g V 54g for a triple-length), bulkier, and weaker(22kN V 24kN)

Ben, is it your expert opinion that the BD Infinity Cord in the 180cm length weighs 210g?  Is there anything odd about that number that might make an expert pause for a split second to think "hm, that might not be right"?

We've already had a 3 page thread about your intentionally misleading strength comparisons, so we don't really need to rehash that here.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

It's always difficult to convey nuance when trying to be brief on an online forum.  The confident assertion of an expert opinion can be mistaken for ego, especially by those who imagine others to be like themselves.  It is not ego, however, to state that BD could have gotten to a quality seamless product quicker if they had accepted my offer to collaborate.

 If only they had the greatest rigger of all time they could have done it! /s
This is exactly what it is. Ego, Hubris, Cockiness, etc etc.
Classic Ben Zartman.

  They got to it by other means, years later, with a product that is heavier (210g V 54g for a triple-length), bulkier, and weaker(22kN V 24kN), because it uses a different, though cheaper, method.

Your numbers are wrong.
They state the weight at 32grams per 120cm, how the heck did you get to 210 for the 180 (or 240cm)...?
REI has incorrect weight on their website if thats where you got it, and i'll asusme you did as its the only place that has that weight listed.
The 240 is listed elswhere as 62g. Not that much better eh?

I'm not interested in making continuous filament slings, because they are not better.

This has been said to you many times. Better is subjective, but it seems that you can't see the forrest through the trees.

  I'd rather make less sales with the best product than more sales with a second-tier offering.  I'll probably die poor in consequence, but I've been preparing for that my whole life.

Revisit the term subjective.

Mr Rogerswrote:

Your numbers are wrong.
They state the weight at 32grams per 120cm, how the heck did you get to 210 for the 180 (or 240cm)...?
REI has incorrect weight on their website if thats where you got it, and i'll asusme you did as its the only place that has that weight listed.
The 240 is listed elswhere as 62g. Not that much better eh?

It's not just a "whoops" either.  210g would be physically impossible for a sling that size unless it was made from a solid piece of steel.  11mm static lines are lighter than 210g in that length.  An "expert" should have known in a split second that something was wrong with that number.

In this case, the "expertise" is debatable, and the self-belief in a "superior" product appears to be overriding any rational thought.

Kyle Tarrywrote:

It's not just a "whoops" either.  210g would be physically impossible for a sling that size unless it was made from a solid piece of steel.  11mm static lines are lighter than 210g in that length.  An "expert" should have known in a split second that something was wrong with that number.

In this case, the "expertise" is debatable, and the self-belief in a "superior" product appears to be overriding any rational thought.

The irony here is that the person who slings about published numbers the most is upset when the only published number available is used.  It seemed like four times more was excessive, but who am I to question published data?

Nevertheless, my slings are still lighter, stronger and less bulky.  Why can't you guys get over that?  It's a simple fact.

It’s now listed on BD’s site and will be available in 120, 180 & 240 cm lengths

https://blackdiamondequipment.com/products/infinity-cord?_pos=1&_sid=4778e74ae&_ss=r

Ben Zartmanwrote:

The irony here is that the person who slings about published numbers the most is upset when the only published number available is used.  It seemed like four times more was excessive, but who am I to question published data?

Nevertheless, my slings are still lighter, stronger and less bulky.  Why can't you guys get over that?  It's a simple fact.