Clipping racking biners???

phylp phylpwrote:

There is nothing complicated about this.  Clip your alpine draw, extended or not, or your quickdraw, to the cam sling.  Just let the racking biner hang there. This system makes transfer of gear between partners and re-racking simple and fast. Nobody clips a biner to a biner. At least not for the last 50 years.

Maybe the 50 years is a stretch. It was common to use two binners on a nut or bolt until sewn quick draws became more common in the mid 80s. That is only 40 years lol.

Clearly a sling is much safer!

hillbilly hijinkswrote:

And instead you've moved to a practice of leaving extra biners behind on a piece because "who cares they are so light"?

I'm tempted to revoke your "Trad Dad" card. Royal Robbins just crapped his coffin. 

Weird thing to say to a woman. 

hillbilly hijinkswrote:

Well, when I started 50 years ago and before quick draws were invented putting two biners on a bolt were standard practice when you didn't have or need to extend it with a sling.

Never heard of one coming unclipped, ever. I respect gunkiemike's above incident, but not convinced it wasn't simply user error of some kind. Maybe we just didn't fall or hang lol.

Honestly, the number of nub videos I see where people are obsessively adding alpine draws to everything and leaving behind the extra biner is anathema to me. Alpine draws are fine for nuts, use a sling and a biner for a cam, imo. Leave behind a biner doing nothing? wtfover?

People carry far too much crap they don't use and don't get me started on locking carabiners for everything under the sun. Carrying extra biners that don't even get used is a manufacturers dream.

I can't help but notice more than one of your posts across different threads are pretty opinionated and have an air of, "if it's not the way I do it, it's dumb". Obviously do things in whatever manner you prefer, but it seems like an awful lot of energy to type out these rant style posts knocking the way other people do things just because it's different.

Different strokes for different folks. Shrug.

Cosmic Hotdogwrote:

I can't help but notice more than one of your posts across different threads are pretty opinionated and have an air of, "if it's not the way I do it, it's dumb". Obviously do things in whatever manner you prefer, but it seems like an awful lot of energy to type out these rant style posts knocking the way other people do things just because it's different.

Different strokes for different folks. Shrug.

One pitch cragging is "different strokes". Multipitch there is no reason to endorse inefficient technique.

If you want to clip your alpine draw to your cam, more power to you. But if you are leaving the racking biner behind because you are just too lazy to remove it that is sad.

Willing to bet the same dude as 6 lockers for the belay....

timothy fisherwrote:

Maybe the 50 years is a stretch. It was common to use two binners on a nut or bolt until sewn quick draws became more common in the mid 80s. That is only 40 years lol.

I agree. Fifty just sounded better than 40. Call it poetic license. 

But I remember the last time I ever clipped 2 biners together and since it gives me the chance to tell a story about someone who should not be forgotten, I'll tell it. 

I joined the original CityRock in Berkeley shortly after it opened in 1990. I was climbing with Barry Bates a bit back then and we would sometimes go up to City Rock. at some point he introduced me to Dave Altman, who was working there running the weight room and who Barry said was called by some of the other Valley regulars " the World's Strongest Man" .  He was damn strong. Once I was whining to Dave about how I had flailed on the first pitch of Hardd and he just rolled his eyes and said that when he was living in the Valley he used to up and down solo that pitch, a dozen laps, as his end of the day workout. 

Dave and I became friendly and did a little climbing together. On some Valley route that I cannot remember, I led this pitch and clipped a fixed pin with two ovals. When Dave got up to the belay, he was very upset. Never, ever do that again, he chided me - it's dangerous. 

When The World's Strongest Man tells you not to ever do something again, you don't do it. RIP Dave. 

phylp phylpwrote:

I agree. Fifty just sounded better than 40. Call it poetic license. 

But I remember the last time I ever clipped 2 biners together and since it gives me the chance to tell a story about someone who should not be forgotten, I'll tell it. 

I joined the original CityRock in Berkeley shortly after it opened in 1990. I was climbing with Barry Bates a bit back then and we would sometimes go up to City Rock. at some point he introduced me to Dave Altman, who was working there running the weight room and who Barry said was called by some of the other Valley regulars " the World's Strongest Man" .  He was damn strong. Once I was whining to Dave about how I had flailed on the first pitch of Hardd and he just rolled his eyes and said that when he was living in the Valley he used to up and down solo that pitch, a dozen laps, as his end of the day workout. 

Dave and I became friendly and did a little climbing together. On some Valley route that I cannot remember, I led this pitch and clipped a fixed pin with two ovals. When Dave got up to the belay, he was very upset. Never, ever do that again, he chided me - it's dangerous. 

When The World's Strongest Man tells you not to ever do something again, you don't do it. RIP Dave. 

Fond memories of Dave. Indeed, famous for many feats of strength and Barry too for that matter. Knew Dave from the Valley and Berkeley and worked with Barry. Last I checked Barry was still kicking?

It's just anecdotal though. I seriously doubt any more double biners came unclipped as quick draws do these days on something as randomly variable as a fixed pin that can easily bind things up. I think the big difference these days is the slings on cams create a lot of useful flexibility that a fixed pin cannot replicate. 

I agree that a fixed pin buried deep somewhere will benefit from biner to sling rather than biner to biner due to the orientation of the eye.

hillbilly hijinkswrote:

One pitch cragging is "different strokes". Multipitch there is no reason to endorse inefficient technique.

If you want to clip your alpine draw to your cam, more power to you. But if you are leaving the racking biner behind because you are just too lazy to remove it that is sad.

Personally it would never occur to me to remove the racking biner. Seems a lot more efficient to leave it. Certainly it would add to the belay transition if I got up to the leader and they had a stack of biners that had to be re-paired to their cams that had been removed for no apparent benefit. 

Nate Awrote:

Personally it would never occur to me to remove the racking biner. Seems a lot more efficient to leave it. Certainly it would add to the belay transition if I got up to the leader and they had a stack of biners that had to be re-paired to their cams that had been removed for no apparent benefit. 

This is actually shocking to me that you cannot conceive of the utility of having free carabiners available for constructing the belay or for using elsewhere on the pitch?

You just bring even more with you every time than you actually need? Literally you just leave behind carabiners because you can't conceive of using them elsewhere for any utility and re-racking them is too much trouble, but hauling the extras up the pitch isn't?

It could not be more clear to me that you've never actually climbed anything where weight of the rack could be a determinant of your success or failure?

When you graduate to things like The Hulk, Mt. Conness South Face, Keeler Needle or Half Dome in a day you will get it, and realize all along you should have been bringing only exactly what you need. Literally when that one extra or not carabiner should be a hard choice when it's your turn to lead or you've brought way too much.

It will let you push your trad limits when you pare the rack down to the very minimum.

Tell you what, go to the Trad videos thread and look at some vid of people climbing hard trad and tell me how many are leaving behind biners on the pitch that they carried up there and never used? How many times they are extending pieces and just leaving the racking biner there? Only when its WAY under their limit.

With more experience it will make more sense.

You guys lost me on your responses to Nate.  

sometimes I clip it directly, sometimes I clip a shoulder sling, sometimes I clip an alpine (to the sling), sometimes I clip a draw (not a dogbone), sometimes I botch the clip altogether…..but I’d never bother to remove and re-rack the racking biner.  

hillbilly hijinkswrote:

When you graduate to things like The Hulk, Mt. Conness South Face, Keeler Needle or Half Dome in a day you will get it, and realize all along you should have been bringing only exactly what you need. Literally when that one extra or not carabiner should be a hard choice when it's your turn to lead or you've brought way too much.

Here's a photo from the Harding route on Conness right here on MP showing a racking carabiner left on a cam:

Steph Abegg photo from Keeler (also from MP):

Tell you what, go to the Trad videos thread and look at some vid of people climbing hard trad and tell me how many are leaving behind biners on the pitch that they carried up there and never used? How many times they are extending pieces and just leaving the racking biner there? Only when its WAY under their limit.

You need some experience, son.

Can you link to any video that shows anybody cleaning racking carabiners off of cams and putting them back onto their harness?

Here's Brette Harrington on a huge route in Patagonia, leaving the racking carabiners on the cams:

https://youtu.be/Qx1QgR6xrG4?si=TXBpjPqK_I9nXpCP&t=118

FPB on 12a in the Gunks: https://youtu.be/FsN0u2GTNmQ?si=hVpBrg-ncwX2lGM_&t=356

First page of the MP trad videos thread, a 5.12 at the Gunks: https://youtu.be/ZG7m1qLoZ30?si=FdaxqD8DQ-TRl3Gq&t=109

Bronwyn and Jacob on Baffin: https://youtu.be/FYA00ZrbPdc?si=_5DhuE-BavmaYCPV&t=320

This is a photo I took of my partner when we climbed the SE Face of Lotus in a day, note the racking carabiner still on the extended cam.

This one is from the crux pitch on Huntington's Harvard route:

I can't say that I know what everybody does, but leaving the racking carabiner on the cam sure seems like common practice, and on way harder routes than you've ever climbed.

hillbilly hijinkswrote:

Well, when I started 50 years ago and before quick draws were invented putting two biners on a bolt were standard practice when you didn't have or need to extend it with a sling.

Never heard of one coming unclipped, ever. I respect gunkiemike's above incident, but not convinced it wasn't simply user error of some kind. Maybe we just didn't fall or hang lol.

It is true that double carabiners were used on pitons and bolts in the 40's and 50's. I no longer remember how many unclipping episodes I heard about, but it definitely happened. Mark Powell's life was significantly altered in 1957 when a foothold broke on an ascent of the Arrowhead Arete. He fell and a double carabiner clip-in to a piton twisted, unclipped, and failed, dropping him 40 feet and resulting in a compound ankle dislocation.  Difficulty in initiating a rescue and dirt in the wounds resulted in a very nasty infection.  Most of his life was spent with various levels of ankle pain, and late in life he had to have his foot amputated.  I believe this incident and others like it were the start of the "no metal on metal" rule, which is silly for anchor situations when the separate carabiners are not going to be in motion.  The situation is totally different when clipping pro because the possibility of so much relative motion makes unclipping a distinct possibility, as Mike, Mark, and others have found out.

So, conventional wisdom nowadays is that it is a bad idea to chain non-locking carabiners on protection. The simplest and most efficient approach for medium to large cams is to use a dedicated racking carabiner and either clip it directly for certain splitters where rope motions are deemed not to be a problem or else, most of the time, to use a quick draw clipped to the cam webbing, not the racking biner. If the placement is very mission-critical, the leader can use the racking carabiner to double up the rope end of the quickdraw to prevent a possibly catastrophic unclipping there. The dedicated racking biner is not efficient in terms of equipment use, but it simplifies cleaning and racking the cam and means the leader can just carry quickdraws rather than some quickdraws and some slings with single carabiners for clipping cams. The cleaning efficiency of the racking carabiner is of course eliminated if the leader removes the racking carabiner, so most people leave it in place. Once the cams are small enough, two or three can be racked on a single carabiner and the placement clipped with a quickdraw, as one would do with nuts.

In brief, don't chain non-locking carabiners on protection.  A dedicated minimalist can do without racking carabiners on cams, but they do make the overall climbing process more efficient.

rgoldwrote:

A dedicated minimalist can do without racking carabiners on cams, but they do make the overall climbing process more efficient.

This is basically where I’m at. For me the efficiency of not moving biners around is worth the trade off of carrying 1-2 biners for the anchor, a few ounces at most. I’ve never managed to have the perfect number of pieces on a climb, though I have wished I had another piece occasionally.

Mostly I only responded to the suggestion that it’s somehow lazy to leave an extra biner. 

Kyle Tarrywrote:

Here's a photo from the Harding route on Conness right here on MP showing a racking carabiner left on a cam:

Steph Abegg photo from Keeler (also from MP):

Can you link to any video that shows anybody cleaning racking carabiners off of cams and putting them back onto their harness?

Here's Brette Harrington on a huge route in Patagonia, leaving the racking carabiners on the cams:

https://youtu.be/Qx1QgR6xrG4?si=TXBpjPqK_I9nXpCP&t=118

FPB on 12a in the Gunks: https://youtu.be/FsN0u2GTNmQ?si=hVpBrg-ncwX2lGM_&t=356

First page of the MP trad videos thread, a 5.12 at the Gunks: https://youtu.be/ZG7m1qLoZ30?si=FdaxqD8DQ-TRl3Gq&t=109

Bronwyn and Jacob on Baffin: https://youtu.be/FYA00ZrbPdc?si=_5DhuE-BavmaYCPV&t=320

This is a photo I took of my partner when we climbed the SE Face of Lotus in a day, note the racking carabiner still on the extended cam.

This one is from the crux pitch on Huntington's Harvard route:

I can't say that I know what everybody does, but leaving the racking carabiner on the cam sure seems like common practice, and on way harder routes than you've ever climbed.

I'm flattered that you went to all that trouble to be wrong, again, Kyle. 

Other than that frozen nightmare on Mt. Huntington you would be dead wrong and I won't jack the thread with the historical record.

But congrats on Lotus Tower! That is a mega-classic to be sure. I didn't know you could climb 10A!?

rgoldwrote:

It is true that double carabiners were used on pitons and bolts in the 40's and 50's. I no longer remember how many unclipping episodes I heard about, but it definitely happened. Mark Powell's life was significantly altered in 1957 when a foothold broke on an ascent of the Arrowhead Arete. He fell and a double carabiner clip-in to a piton twisted, unclipped, and failed, dropping him 40 feet and resulting in a compound ankle dislocation.  Difficulty in initiating a rescue and dirt in the wounds resulted in a very nasty infection.  Most of his life was spent with various levels of ankle pain, and late in life he had to have his foot amputated.  I believe this incident and others like it were the start of the "no metal on metal" rule, which is silly for anchor situations when the separate carabiners are not going to be in motion.  The situation is totally different when clipping pro because the possibility of so much relative motion makes unclipping a distinct possibility, as Mike, Mark, and others have found out.

So, conventional wisdom nowadays is that it is a bad idea to chain non-locking carabiners on protection. The simplest and most efficient approach for medium to large cams is to use a dedicated racking carabiner and either clip it directly for certain splitters where rope motions are deemed not to be a problem or else, most of the time, to use a quick draw clipped to the cam webbing, not the racking biner. If the placement is very mission-critical, the leader can use the racking carabiner to double up the rope end of the quickdraw to prevent a possibly catastrophic unclipping there. The dedicated racking biner is not efficient in terms of equipment use, but it simplifies cleaning and racking the cam and means the leader can just carry quickdraws rather than some quickdraws and some slings with single carabiners for clipping cams. The cleaning efficiency of the racking carabiner is of course eliminated if the leader removes the racking carabiner, so most people leave it in place. Once the cams are small enough, two or three can be racked on a single carabiner and the placement clipped with a quickdraw, as one would do with nuts.

In brief, don't chain non-locking carabiners on protection.  A dedicated minimalist can do without racking carabiners on cams, but they do make the overall climbing process more efficient.

Respectfully, Ser Gold, double biners on a fixed pin (or any pin) are a different kettle of fish that we agree on.

Quickdraws and Alpine Draws also come unclipped leading to accidents. I simply don't agree that there is data that suggests going carabiner to carabiner on a slung cam is a big deal despite what has become (lazy) convention.

I think you would agree that the newer generation uses Alpine Draws more than we ever did or would. I still take a few slings over the shoulder with single biners on them. Our generation probably feels free biners are too precious to leave all over the route doing nothing.

I'm probably triggered by the innumerable Youtube videos of beginners extending cam after cam unnecessarily and leaving behind biner after biner all incredibly inefficient yet somehow normalized.

hillbilly hijinkswrote:

Respectfully, Ser Gold, double biners on a fixed pin (or any pin) are a different kettle of fish that we agree on.

Quickdraws and Alpine Draws also come unclipped leading to accidents. I simply don't agree that there is data that suggests going carabiner to carabiner on a slung cam is a big deal despite what has become (lazy) convention.

I think you would agree that the newer generation uses Alpine Draws more than we ever did or would. I still take a few slings over the shoulder with single biners on them. Our generation probably feels free biners are too precious to leave all over the route doing nothing.

I'm probably triggered by the innumerable Youtube videos of beginners extending cam after cam unnecessarily and leaving behind biner after biner all incredibly inefficient yet somehow normalized.

Watching YouTube videos of beginners eh? Got any recommendations? 

M Mwrote:

Watching YouTube videos of beginners eh? Got any recommendations? 

 

Yea, stop tugging on your dam cams cause they'll pop you in the face and stop extending cams in a straight in crack.

Any other questions?

Who knew there were strong opinions on this!  I myself have gone through the weight/efficiency thought process on racking biners and experimented with shoulder slings with one biner.  I just didn't like it for some reason.  Maybe because often what I'm extending is a wire placement?  Having to switch the arm I'm using to hang on to get the sling off?  My current thinking is that it's, for me, more efficient and comfortable to just have the gear I want to use where I want to use it, including probably more pro than some might carry.  

hillbilly hijinkswrote:

I'm flattered that you went to all that trouble to be wrong, again, Kyle. 

Other than that frozen nightmare on Mt. Huntington you would be dead wrong and I won't jack the thread with the historical record.

But congrats on Lotus Tower! That is a mega-classic to be sure. I didn't know you could climb 10A!?

Can you simply provide evidence of your claims that people regularly clean racking carabiners off cams?

Also, can you clarify what I am "dead wrong" about, since I just posted screenshots and said "here's a racking carabiner"?  I am not making any claims of my own here.

Let's try to stick to the facts, not ad hominem attacks.

I have never seen nor heard of anyone taking the racking carabiner off of a cam when they clip an alpine draw to it. Seems like it would be a lot slower and more annoying to end up at a belay with a bunch of random carabiners in the wrong places. "oh sorry I can't separate this cam from its sling because I took the carabiner off and now it's in the anchor" 

I've also never heard of people bringing quickdraws with only one carabiner (sounds hard to place?) or only bringing over the shoulder slings with one carabiner each, except for maybe on very easy routes.

It's probably true that it's a generational thing. I think that over the shoulder slings with one carabiner have fallen out of fashion because they are harder to place quickly, or when you have to swap hands to get them off. Maybe when hillbilly hijinks graduates to climbing el cap in a day, he will get it ;)

timothy fisherwrote:

Maybe the 50 years is a stretch. It was common to use two binners on a nut or bolt until sewn quick draws became more common in the mid 80s. That is only 40 years lol.

Clearly a sling is much safer!

Maybe 50 years isn't a stretch. I have vivid memories of making up quick draws, and we even called them quick draws, out of tie 1" tubular webbing runners doubled and 2 oval carabiners. I made them up for Harrison Decker, who was about to lead the first pitch of Maxine's Wall. It was his first 5.10 lead. This would have been 1975. I  remember this specifically because at one of the bolts Harrison pulled the pre clipped to rope quick draw through the hardware sling, which quickly stopped his upward progress. Just visualize it. To Harrison's credit, he managed to get untangled without falling off, and completed the lead. Harrison went on to become an awesome sender of trad leads at the highest level and an equally skilled, or even better, boulderer.

I don't remember where we got the term quick draw. Hell, just maybe we are the originators of the term. Nat Smale and Paul Tomita were also present. My guess is the term quickdraw came from Nat.