Clipping racking biners???

Do you clip quickdraws or alpine draws into your cam racking biners when extending a piece. Specifically clipping the carabiner of the quickdraw to the carabiner of the cam? If not why not?

Always clip the biner into the sling not another carabiner. If you clip biner to biner you are increasing the chance of cross loading. It’s safer to clip the webbing.

Carabiners can act in funny ways when clipped together and can possibly rotate in such a way as to unclip each other. Although with only two carabiners clipped together this chance is very small, it is nonetheless present. It is better to clip directly to the sling of the cam. 

If you'd like to clip directly to the cam biner you can always go full trad dad and have a bunch of slings over your shoulder with one carabiner each on them.

I used to cary slings with one biner and do exactly that because people always told me clipping two biners together was sketchy. However i found it really irritating when i needed to extend a piece of passive pro (which i rack multiple of together on one carabiner) and would be short a carabiner on the sling. I now cary standard alpines and clip the racking biner, because i want the extra extension. How is two carabiners clipped together between two slings any more likely to cross load or unclip itself than a quickdraw clipped to a bolt hanger? Have there been accidents where this has happened?

Jose Marronwrote:

I used to cary slings with one biner and do exactly that because people always told me clipping two biners together was sketchy. However i found it really irritating when i needed to extend a piece of passive pro (which i rack multiple of together on one carabiner) and would be short a carabiner on the sling. I now cary standard alpines and clip the racking biner, because i want the extra extension. How is two carabiners clipped together between two slings any more likely to cross load or unclip itself than a quickdraw clipped to a bolt hanger? Have there been accidents where this has happened?

It is the biner to biner connection that is the issue. The quick draw on a bolt hanger is different because there's no biner to biner connection. It's not a significant risk but it is always present whenever you connect two non lockers together and then jangle them around a whole bunch. 

There is nothing complicated about this.  Clip your alpine draw, extended or not, or your quickdraw, to the cam sling.  Just let the racking biner hang there. This system makes transfer of gear between partners and re-racking simple and fast. Nobody clips a biner to a biner. At least not for the last 50 years.

Phylp is right. Biner to biner not since the days of pitons for free climbing. And before sewn quick draws came about. There's a gap in between the two. We used to make alpine draws, or something kinda like them, for clipping fixed pins or bolts. Initially it was a tied 1" runner doubled! Then someone got the smart idea of doubling 9/16 supertape tied runners. Then someone else came up with the tripling the supertape runners idea......the creation of the "alpine draw", about 20 years before someone named them. Maybe they aren't "alpine draws" if the slings aren't sewn? Just jokin.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

It is the biner to biner connection that is the issue. The quick draw on a bolt hanger is different because there's no biner to biner connection. It's not a significant risk but it is always present whenever you connect two non lockers together and then jangle them around a whole bunch. 

I agree that it is different. The fixed point of the bolt hanger makes it far more likely to crossload or unclip itself. I find it highly suspect that two nonlockers would position themselves into a dangerous position at the end of two slings. Has this ever happened in the real world? Can you even make it happen intentionally on the ground? ive tried and it was unimpressive

phylp phylp wrote:

There is nothing complicated about this.  Clip your alpine draw, extended or not, or your quickdraw, to the cam sling.  Just let the racking biner hang there. This system makes transfer of gear between partners and re-racking simple and fast. Nobody clips a biner to a biner. At least not for the last 50 years.

Why not clip it tho? Why just leave it dangling there jammed into the sling? Why carry it if youre not going to clip it? Its not any easier or simpler to ignore a perfectly good carabiner

Jose Marronwrote:

Why not clip it tho? Why just leave it dangling there jammed into the sling? Why carry it if youre not going to clip it? Its not any easier or simpler to ignore a perfectly good carabiner

I deleted this paragraph:

Edit: I misread the quote from Jose. As I said before, and others who are very experienced and knowledgeable, and same for posts below, carabiner to carabiner is to be avoided. It's real easy to figure out for yourself. Clip 2 together, then twist. If one gate opening end is adjacent the other carabiner, a simple twist will cause them to separate. 

The below comment below about stacking the odds in your favor might be the most important concept in this whole thread. We all choose to accept some risk based on our various individual rules, individual experience, and individual skill. But not stacking the odds in your favor is just plain foolhardy.

Jose Marronwrote:

I agree that it is different. The fixed point of the bolt hanger makes it far more likely to crossload or unclip itself. I find it highly suspect that two nonlockers would position themselves into a dangerous position at the end of two slings. Has this ever happened in the real world? Can you even make it happen intentionally on the ground? ive tried and it was unimpressive

Why not clip it tho? Why just leave it dangling there jammed into the sling? Why carry it if youre not going to clip it? Its not any easier or simpler to ignore a perfectly good carabiner

So sometimes quick draws will unclip from the bolt side. This is uncommon, as it usually happens on the rope side. However, it is possible and I've heard a third hand story of this happening to a friend of a friend (as well as some online accounts). 

Clipping two non lockers together increases this probability significantly. I don't know of any cases of two carabiners coming unclipped from each other, probably because it is not common practice. We have plenty of stories of cams unclipping themselves from ropes and draws unclipping themselves from hangers. What you are proposing is riskier than that. 

Could you go your whole climbing career and be fine? Almost certainly. Also, despite being in a half dozen car accidents, in none of them was my seat belt necessary. I could probably go my whole life without wearing one and be safe. Does that mean I shouldn't wear a seatbelt? 

Climbing has a lot of risk assessments that are like wearing a seatbelt. Is it likely to happen to you specifically? No, it's not. Does it happen to multiple people every year? Yes it does. Just wear the metaphorical seatbelt. Or take on the extra risk if you like, I ain't your dad, but if you take on the risk at least be educated on the risk you're taking. 

Jose - what is your purpose here? You asked a question and it’s been rightly answered - that your proposed carabiner-to-carabiner clipping method is a smidge less safe than the carabiner-to-sling method when clipping cams. Seems like you just don’t want to believe that’s true.

As folks have pointed out carabiners can do funky things sometimes, especially in gear ripping falls but in many normal circumstances as well.

In climbing our goal is to stack the odds in our favor so we don’t die. It’s maybe 2.37% safer to clip into the cam sling than the carabiner so that’s how we do it (random statistic for point-making). You are welcome to do your own thing and ignore collective wisdom, no one is stopping you. 

If there’s a compelling reason on a route to clip carabiner to carabiner go for it - it’s probably fine. But there’s 0 reason to make it a habit. 

Jose Marronwrote:

I agree that it is different. The fixed point of the bolt hanger makes it far more likely to crossload or unclip itself. I find it highly suspect that two nonlockers would position themselves into a dangerous position at the end of two slings. Has this ever happened in the real world? Can you even make it happen intentionally on the ground? ive tried and it was unimpressive

Why not clip it tho? Why just leave it dangling there jammed into the sling? Why carry it if youre not going to clip it? Its not any easier or simpler to ignore a perfectly good carabiner

You're right, sometimes that carabiner is useful! 

If the placement loads my carabiner in such a way that the gate touches a rock and opens it slightly, sometimes I'll use the racking carabiner to double up the connection to the sling, making the two carabiners opposite and opposed. This takes time and energy. Sometimes that extra effort is worth the squeeze, but often times it doesn't matter. 

Someone else mentioned bringing just one carabiner on each sling. Another option is racking same-sized cams on one carabiner. This choice is pretty uncommon, but it can work alright with smaller cams or specialty gear like offsets or ball nuts. 

Hangers and non-lockers, what's the difference? The difference is both carabiners can rotate and have gates. A hanger in a rock can't spin. A hanger in a rock can't open. Two non-lockers can twist around each other, causing either carabiner to push on the gate of the other. You could even hold one carabiner still like a hanger, then lift the other carabiner and stimulate what happens when you take a fall; the chance of the carabiners coming unclipped is there. 

Marginally relevant experience - last year I had an incident where biner-on-biner came unclipped on me. I was clipping in direct to a cam to hang and depump. I clipped the sling on my harness to the racking biner of the cam rather than the cam's sling. When i leaned back, the assembly twisted a bit and the lower biner evidently rolled onto the gate of the upper biner. I ended up pancaked on a lower ledge with a sprained ankle.

Jose Marronwrote:

Do you clip quickdraws or alpine draws into your cam racking biners when extending a piece. Specifically clipping the carabiner of the quickdraw to the carabiner of the cam? If not why not?

I clip directly to the sling like BDEL shows in their manual. 

phylp phylpwrote:

There is nothing complicated about this.  Clip your alpine draw, extended or not, or your quickdraw, to the cam sling.  Just let the racking biner hang there. This system makes transfer of gear between partners and re-racking simple and fast. Nobody clips a biner to a biner. At least not for the last 50 years.

Well, when I started 50 years ago and before quick draws were invented putting two biners on a bolt were standard practice when you didn't have or need to extend it with a sling.

Never heard of one coming unclipped, ever. I respect gunkiemike's above incident, but not convinced it wasn't simply user error of some kind. Maybe we just didn't fall or hang lol.

Honestly, the number of nub videos I see where people are obsessively adding alpine draws to everything and leaving behind the extra biner is anathema to me. Alpine draws are fine for nuts, use a sling and a biner for a cam, imo. Leave behind a biner doing nothing? wtfover?

People carry far too much crap they don't use and don't get me started on locking carabiners for everything under the sun. Carrying extra biners that don't even get used is a manufacturers dream.

Who says you have to have 2 carabiners on your quick draws? 

There is no one way.

"Normal is what everyone does when they have half a mind to". Pat Parelli.

hillbilly hijinkswrote:

Well, when I started 50 years ago and before quick draws were invented putting two biners on a bolt were standard practice when you didn't have or need to extend it with a sling.

It was still an occasional practice when I started climbing as well.  So was using a 10.5 or 11 mm rope, tying a harness out of 2 inch webbing, belaying with a figure 8 or Sticht plate, making all your own slings (as Eric said) from 1 inch webbing tied with a water knot, and carrying state of the art oval carabiners.  But I've moved on from all those practices for the sake of weight, efficiency and safety.  

Honestly, the number of nub videos I see where people are obsessively adding alpine draws to everything and leaving behind the extra biner is anathema to me. Alpine draws are fine for nuts, use a sling and a biner for a cam, imo. Leave behind a biner doing nothing? wtfover?

Well, I don't watch videos so I'll have to take your word for it.  No one in this thread was suggesting that every cam placement needs to be extended.  Depending on the rock type and the route, I may extend zero to 50 % of my cam placements. But the original post was asking, what is YOUR practice when you do want to extend a cam placement and I gave the answer for the practice that is in use by myself and most people today. Why? as said - it's the most energy and time efficient technique, both while you are leading and for re-racking and for gear changeovers. And statistically safer than clipping 2 biners together. You don't need to agree with me about this - it's your partners who matter, not a stranger on the internet.

People carry far too much crap they don't use and don't get me started on locking carabiners for everything under the sun. Carrying extra biners that don't even get used is a manufacturers dream.

One thing you may not be factoring into your consideration is that carabiner and cam technology has evolved greatly since BITD.  (Although to be fair, the original WC rigid stem cams were actually lighter than the first generation BD cams.)  The old Bonotti and BD ovals I used to carry weighed around 57 grams each.  Today the Petzl Ange S and L that I use on a lot of things now weigh 28 grams and 34 grams respectively.  The DMM and similar brand color coded racking biners that I use weigh around 32 gms. So my full rack of today is actually considerably lighter than the BITD rack.

But certainly continue to do whatever seems best to you.

If somebody really has a problem with carrying draws with 2 carabiners plus their piece of gear with a carabiner, just do what some people do and rack your alpine draws by putting them over your head/across your body and keeping only a single carabiner on each one. 

i.e. like this below except with a single carabiner per draw. Credit to VDiff Climbing for the picture

Why not clip carabiner to carabiner vs. carabiner to cam sling? Well, I reckon if you don't mind doubling the odds of your carabiner twisting off or otherwise releasing, then go ahead. If you are worried about the extra weight of two biners per draw, then use single carabiner draws and clip into the cam carabiner. If I'm climbing a route where I know I'll need fully extended alpines I often use full length slings clipped over my shoulder with one carabiner. Or rabbit runners. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

Why not clip carabiner to carabiner vs. carabiner to cam sling? Well, I reckon if you don't mind doubling the odds of your carabiner twisting off or otherwise releasing, then go ahead. If you are worried about the extra weight of two biners per draw, then use single carabiner draws and clip into the cam carabiner. If I'm climbing a route where I know I'll need fully extended alpines I often use full length slings clipped over my shoulder with one carabiner. Or rabbit runners. 

This exactly, well said Andrew. It seems like such a silly argument being made above. If someone wants more extension, use longer slings. If someone wants less weight to carry, use slings racked over the shoulder with a single carabiner. 

If someone wants to be stubborn and clip metal to metal and risk the carabiner cross-loading or twisting and unclipping itself, we certainly can't stop them but it's not best practice for a reason. The perspective of, "it's never gone wrong for me so it's not a problem" is pretty close-minded and short sighted.

phylp phylpwrote:

It was still an occasional practice when I started climbing as well.  So was using a 10.5 or 11 mm rope, tying a harness out of 2 inch webbing, belaying with a figure 8 or Sticht plate, making all your own slings (as Eric said) from 1 inch webbing tied with a water knot, and carrying state of the art oval carabiners.  But I've moved on from all those practices for the sake of weight, efficiency and safety.  

Well, I don't watch videos so I'll have to take your word for it.  No one in this thread was suggesting that every cam placement needs to be extended.  Depending on the rock type and the route, I may extend zero to 50 % of my cam placements. But the original post was asking, what is YOUR practice when you do want to extend a cam placement and I gave the answer for the practice that is in use by myself and most people today. Why? as said - it's the most energy and time efficient technique, both while you are leading and for re-racking and for gear changeovers. And statistically safer than clipping 2 biners together. You don't need to agree with me about this - it's your partners who matter, not a stranger on the internet.

One thing you may not be factoring into your consideration is that carabiner and cam technology has evolved greatly since BITD.  (Although to be fair, the original WC rigid stem cams were actually lighter than the first generation BD cams.)  The old Bonotti and BD ovals I used to carry weighed around 57 grams each.  Today the Petzl Ange S and L that I use on a lot of things now weigh 28 grams and 34 grams respectively.  The DMM and similar brand color coded racking biners that I use weigh around 32 gms. So my full rack of today is actually considerably lighter than the BITD rack.

But certainly continue to do whatever seems best to you.

And instead you've moved to a practice of leaving extra biners behind on a piece because "who cares they are so light"?

I'm tempted to revoke your "Trad Dad" card. Royal Robbins just crapped his coffin. 

No disrespect, Ser Royal, just sayin'.

I get it, climbers today get wood/damp panties over Alpine Draws and their utility. 

They're amazing until you have to sling a tree or replace tat. Then the tears flow.

Carry on.