A Concerning Pattern: Z4 Cam Deformation After Falls

Brandon Kupczykwrote:

my partner and I (both 175lbs) took standard whippers

BD warranted the first one but refused the second. Even Chris White (BD's Director of Quality) dismissed my concerns, saying "It did its job. It should be retired."

The safety implications are significant: imagine your cam deforming on one pitch, then needing to rely on it for the next.

Let me get this straight…

You and your partner took whippers (I.e. exceeded your skill limit), the gear worked as designed, BD hooked you up with a free replacement because they’re nice and the outdoor industry is supportive, you fall again (and again?) then decide to drag BD’s QA despite their gear working exactly as advertised before telling us you don’t know when to bail off a route.

Brandon, I hate to break it to you. You’re the problem here. You’ve demonstrated poor judgement and that you don’t fully understand the risks of the sport. Maybe reconsider if climbing is a good fit for you.

Ryan Cwrote:

Let me get this straight…

You and your partner took whippers (I.e. exceeded your skill limit), the gear worked as designed, BD hooked you up with a free replacement because they’re nice and the outdoor industry is supportive, you fall again (and again?) then decide to drag BD’s QA despite their gear working exactly as advertised before telling us you don’t know when to bail off a route.

Brandon, I hate to break it to you. You’re the problem here. You’ve demonstrated poor judgement and that you don’t fully understand the risks of the sport. Maybe reconsider if climbing is a good fit for you.

In what circumstance would you expect your protection to be single use? And where does BD advertise this? Surely you expect your cams to last longer than a fall or two. Also, unless you just time travelled from the 60s, falling on gear is an accepted part of climbing

I agree that cams should not be single use.

I also agree that it's super lame that you tried to warranty three of these in a row (after breaking them all the same way), escalated up to some higher level QC manager, and publicly posted his name just because you didn't like his answer. Get a grip brother (and a single axle cam for that placement!)

Boys, I wouldn’t be making this a big issue unless it wasnt out of the ordinary. I’ve owned a lot of different cams at this point and fallen on all of them. I just want people to know these cams are shitty. I would feel worse for the QC’ers if BD treated them any better they get canned quarterly so BD’s parent company can look better for earnings…

Nick Niebuhrwrote:

In what circumstance would you expect your protection to be single use? And where does BD advertise this? Surely you expect your cams to last longer than a fall or two. Also, unless you just time travelled from the 60s, falling on gear is an accepted part of climbing

Just about every climbing hardware manufacturer clearly states/advertises it is conceivable that any piece of equipment may need to be retired after a single use.

I'm certainly not advocating for single use cams; I don't think anyone in this thread is. However, it is a reality that cams may need to be retired after a single use.

I realize that this is not technically an advertisement, but it's in the pamphlet that comes with the cam.

I also realize this is more of a CYA than anything else, but hey, I would say that BD was pretty cool for replacing that can twice before finally putting their foot down. No cam comes with a guarantee that they will replace it unlimited times forever. 

I'm a metolius and totem kind of guy, personally. Never used dragonflies, zero friends, or aliens, but I rarely hear anything negative about them.

A lot of my friends rack z4s, and they also work great in my experience. Yes, even the small sizes, even when we whip on them.

6 month bump... Is there any consensus on whether the C4's, for the overlapping sizes, are more resistant to this deformation? I have an old 0.5 C4 that I'm looking to replace and was mainly looking at the Z4 because of the narrower head, which, as of 2023 seemed to be strongly preferred for this reason, but am second guessing based on this thread.

James Cwrote:

6 month bump... Is there any consensus on whether the C4's, for the overlapping sizes, are more resistant to this deformation? I have an old 0.5 C4 that I'm looking to replace and was mainly looking at the Z4 because of the narrower head, which, as of 2023 seemed to be strongly preferred for this reason, but am second guessing based on this thread.

It really depends if you’re taking consistent falls on your gear.. I’ve gone through a couple z4 0.5s mostly because I was punting on off finger sized moves at my limit. They do fit into places c4s simply can’t, which is definitely a buying point. But they just don’t hold up to wear and tear like c4s or totems.

James Cwrote:

6 month bump... Is there any consensus on whether the C4's, for the overlapping sizes, are more resistant to this deformation? I have an old 0.5 C4 that I'm looking to replace and was mainly looking at the Z4 because of the narrower head, which, as of 2023 seemed to be strongly preferred for this reason, but am second guessing based on this thread.

If you want narrow heads, go for the Zero Friend, Aliens, or Dragonflys. They hold up far better for punters like me who fall off rock climbs all the time 

Deformation is common in literally all cams, I've seen totems not work from lobes deformation, Z4s, zero friends, aliens, etc. A bit of gentle filing solves this. I've read posts about people reshaping entire cam lobes on aliens after they have gotten so mushroomed out. 

This really is no big deal. 

I can’t speak directly to the deformation issue because I don’t really fall on gear, but I’m seeing a lot of recommendations for single axle cams like the zero friend that don’t mention the cons. I have 0.4 and 0.5 zero friends, and they have a noticeably smaller range and feel more finicky to place than z4s or totems. Perhaps it’s just because I’m not as used to single axle cam placements, but I find it really easy to accidentally overcam the zero friends and get them stuck (not irretrievably so).

Also, one of the major selling points for the zero friends is their soft alloy that bites into the rock (same with aliens and totems), so if there is a difference in deformation, it’s probably due to lobe geometry rather than alloy (perhaps the thin metal near the small end of the range mentioned upthread or just the overall width of the lobes).

My anecdotal evidence is that I have a mangled .4 that has a completely seized lobe. I have no idea when or how it happened, and I’m pretty sure I didn’t fall on it.

I really like the .75 and the .5 Z4s but I avoid anything smaller. I do like the smallest X4s though. 

Just buy a single axel cam in the finger sizes if you are having deformation issues on the z4s. I’m 165 but never had a problem and I’ve taken some massive whippers on the z4s. Aliens, totems, tcus are all single axel so you have options. The bd offsets are also single axel I believe. 

Nicholas Budkawrote:

Just buy a single axel cam in the finger sizes if you are having deformation issues on the z4s. I’m 165 but never had a problem and I’ve taken some massive whippers on the z4s. Aliens, totems, tcus are all single axel so you have options. The bd offsets are also single axel I believe. 

Pump those numbers up! Us 200lb folk can really do a number on some lobes.

I've been whipping on my teeny (purp & Green) C3's and totem basic .3 - .5 for nearly a decade now and they are perfectly functional with minimal to no deformation. One day My friend and I used his Z4's for a crack we had been projecting. very normal length falls (foot at the cam, 150lb humans) onto a 0.3. Within one session we completely ruined two Z4's. Have had many conversations with folks having similar experiences.

 BD should be held responsible for this subpar gear & obvious cash grab. Shameful behavior by BD. Guarantee their athletes would prefer other small cams if they werent obligated to climb on that garbage.