400 Grizzlies in the Cascades

Bruno Schullwrote:

More grizzlies + restrictions on human activity = not necesarily more of this.

Restrictions on human activities=bad

Climbing Weaselwrote:

Restrictions on human activities=bad

The attitude that humans should live unrestricted is unsustainable and self-destructive, as the current state of the world demonstrates.  

Why is the human desire to go climb and hike without restriction more important that protecting wildlife?   What are your values?

Are you prepared top admit that you value the ability to go climbing unrestricted more than protecting wildlife and wildnerness, which is essentialy selfish?  Or is your objection to "restrictions" just a knee-jerk reaction to big government, overeach, blah blah blah?

I go climbing every winter in the Val de Cogne.  A section of the valley is closed every winter to protect bearded vultures, enormous raptors re-introduced to the Alps and Pyreness in the last decade.  In the protected area stand several really nice ice falls...but we just don't climb them.  Simple as that.  Giving those birds space is more important that our desire to climb ice. 

If I go walking of climbing in parts of Italy where there are Grizzlies, I carry bear spray and camp appropriately, just like I do in the Wind Rivers, the Tetons, and the Cascades,  

It's not rocket science--we can share the space.  But we do need to compromise.  

Must be nice to recreate internationally.
for those of modest means we are stuck with recreating locally.
the whole idea of reintroduced griz is the 30 by 30 project. Along with recreation gov for every activity there will be “wildlife corridors” where you are not allowed to go to “protect” said species. Mainly it’s about forcing the public to recreate on recreation gov land, and shutting down land that could be developed into housing.
Wealthy people- who are often profiting from these scams see it as no big deal- just fly to the alps right?

And I have personally been within twenty feet of a bear and cubs by mistake in yos- has it been in Yellowstone I would have been mauled. Speaking of Yellowstone a Swiss woman in the 80’s was mauled to death In Her tent. She did everything right, took all precaution- and got mauled to to death anyway

The biologists at Yellowstone openly talked about the over population problem of grizzly.
I was also told about the time rangers responded to a murder in progress. The “murder” turned out to be a baby elk being eating alive…the grizzly that hung out in the Lake District I worked briefly in Yellowstone killed a tourist the year after I left. I was not surprised. Though for such a small bear- killing a grown man was impressive. Bears gotta eat I suppose

“Re wilding”is an IMF scam and part of the global takeover of recreational land by the rich. We already lost so much freedom with recreation gov- why give up more for a dumb- and frankly dangerous idea.
we have enough dangerous idiots out there, no need to stock our lands with more

C Wilwrote:

Mainly it’s about forcing the public to recreate on recreation gov land, and shutting down land that could be developed into housing.
Wealthy people- who are often profiting from these scams see it as no big deal- just fly to the alps right?

Where exactly did you get these ideas? Genuinely curious.

We have plenty of land for housing, it already exists in our cities. We don't need to pave over forest ecosystems with suburban sprawl. I'm also a bit skeptical that recreation.gov is so profitable that booz Allen or whoever is lobbying government biologists to advocate reintroducing grizzlies...

The IMF openly talks about it. It’s no secret. Watch c span sometimes. 

And forcing the poor into projects style housing is part of the plan. A plan well underway.
the war over resources is already here. And so is the propaganda trying to hide the obvious.
and we do have plenty of land- problem is it’s not affirdable and has been regulated so much your average peasant has no chance to own a house or land any more. It’s part of the push for more trails etc- it blocks development and increases housing costs. Plus you profit off the reservation system on land the poor used to access for free . It’s all winning for the rich. And plus- you can just fly elsewhere to recreate - right?
Nothing says conservation like international traveling to take a hike.
of course uber and google have automated taxis to take when you can not afford a car… 

The imf plan is the poor will own nothing and be happy

It has nothing to do with conservation. Much like recreation gov has nothing to do with what the public wants.
it’s all about greed, profit, and power. Same as it ever was.
I thought building public trails was helping- I never thought my hard work would be monetized by private companies like recreation gov. Lots of good natured people promote this stuff thinking they are helping- but you are not. Much like the access fund promoting recreation gov.
you have to look through the forest to see the trees. Problem is though- greed is burning the trees the f down

If Grizzlies are really this bad, how do people manage to climb in the Winds and Tetons without issue? How do millions of people visit Yellowstone each year without tragedy after tragedy? This bear-anoia is getting ridiculous. If you are that scared of bears, stay in the city (or move to one), because it doesn’t seem like you belong in the outdoors. Frankly, if you are ok with the risks incurred by trad/alpine climbing, but aren’t ok with the risk of being in bear territory, I have major questions about your risk assessment capability. I have a feeling if we were to look up accident reports, rescues, and deaths in the Winds and Tetons, bears would not be a major cause.

The idea that there is some non-zero risk of bear attack, and therefore bears=bad is hilarious. Let’s get rid of all of the rattlesnakes and bees while we’re at it. Someone just got bit by a rattlesnake at my local crag (Smith Rock) a couple weeks ago!

C Wilwrote:

Must be nice to recreate internationally.
for those of modest means we are stuck with recreating locally.
the whole idea of reintroduced griz is the 30 by 30 project. Along with recreation gov for every activity there will be “wildlife corridors” where you are not allowed to go to “protect” said species. Mainly it’s about forcing the public to recreate on recreation gov land, and shutting down land that could be developed into housing.
Wealthy people- who are often profiting from these scams see it as no big deal- just fly to the alps right?

And I have personally been within twenty feet of a bear and cubs by mistake in yos- has it been in Yellowstone I would have been mauled. Speaking of Yellowstone a Swiss woman in the 80’s was mauled to death In Her tent. She did everything right, took all precaution- and got mauled to to death anyway

The biologists at Yellowstone openly talked about the over population problem of grizzly.
I was also told about the time rangers responded to a murder in progress. The “murder” turned out to be a baby elk being eating alive…the grizzly that hung out in the Lake District I worked briefly in Yellowstone killed a tourist the year after I left. I was not surprised. Though for such a small bear- killing a grown man was impressive. Bears gotta eat I suppose

“Re wilding”is an IMF scam and part of the global takeover of recreational land by the rich. We already lost so much freedom with recreation gov- why give up more for a dumb- and frankly dangerous idea.
we have enough dangerous idiots out there, no need to stock our lands with more

There's a lot of tin hat conspiracy theory nonsense on your post C Wil, but there's one concrete thing that I can correct for you. 

You appear to have typecast me as a rich jet-setter ("Must be nice to recreate internationally" and "just fly to the Alps right").

Does that make you feel superior in some way?

Nothing could be farther from the truth. 

I grew up in a middle class family in New York City in the 70s and 80s.  The city was very poor then, nothing like it is now.  Later I moved to California for university.

I spent the years between 14 and 30 road bike racing.  I reached a decent competitive level, and sacrificed a lot to get there. Through my teens and twenties I worked a succession of odd jobs--bike mechanic, construction, barrista, sandwhich maker, substitute teacher, apartment manager for low rent etc etc.  Basically, I was a dirt-bag bike racer, and lived that way until knee injuries took me out of the game at 30.  

I managed to get a degree, and started working as a high school teacher in California.  As you can immagine, working as a high school teacher provided little more money than my previous dirt bag lifestyle.

I married a woman who was half-Spanish and half Swiss, and we moved to Europe.  We lived in Spain for five years, and then came to Switzerland. 

I still work as a high school teacher.  Teachers are respected and paid well in Switzerland, but I still make near the median income (I can't work full-time).  Now that I'm diovrced, and spend a great deal of time taking care of my teenage daughter, I live from month-to-month, check-to-check, and have absolutely no savings.  I drive 20 year old car, and can afford one flight to the US per year (maybe) to see my family in NYC.

I started climbing when I lived in California, and recieved a teaching grant to go to the North Cascades.  That's when I discovered mountains.  I returned to the Cascades several times, and worked on an Earthwatch fellowship monitoring glaciers.  As for the Wind Rivers and the Tetons, I worked for five summers for NOLS as an instructor on mountaineering courses.  After spending months wandering around in the Winds, we would hitchike to the Tetons, and stay in the climbing ranch.  

So that's my deal.  Not quite what you expected, huh?  

Just imagine, I'm not a rich jet-setting foreigner, and I still value wilderness and protecting wildlife.  

In fact, it's living in Europe that's made me appreciate the few empty and wild spaces we still have in the US.  There's very little if anything like that here.

When I think back on my younger self working in the Winds or climbing in the Tetons (hardly wild!) or the Cascades (pretty darn wild in some places!) it's not the climbing achievements or cool things I remember...it's the sense of open space and wilderness, and that includes the grizzlies, wolves, and mountain lions.  

It wouldn't be the same if they weren't there, and it's worth protecting.   

C Wilwrote:

The IMF openly talks about it. It’s no secret. Watch c span sometimes. 

And forcing the poor into projects style housing is part of the plan. A plan well underway.
the war over resources is already here. And so is the propaganda trying to hide the obvious.
and we do have plenty of land- problem is it’s not affirdable and has been regulated so much your average peasant has no chance to own a house or land any more. It’s part of the push for more trails etc- it blocks development and increases housing costs. Plus you profit off the reservation system on land the poor used to access for free . It’s all winning for the rich. And plus- you can just fly elsewhere to recreate - right?
Nothing says conservation like international traveling to take a hike.
of course uber and google have automated taxis to take when you can not afford a car… 

The imf plan is the poor will own nothing and be happy

It has nothing to do with conservation. Much like recreation gov has nothing to do with what the public wants.
it’s all about greed, profit, and power. Same as it ever was.
I thought building public trails was helping- I never thought my hard work would be monetized by private companies like recreation gov. Lots of good natured people promote this stuff thinking they are helping- but you are not. Much like the access fund promoting recreation gov.
you have to look through the forest to see the trees. Problem is though- greed is burning the trees the f down

Thank you for responding by sharing your sources (“watch c span sometime”), I’m sure some of us thought you were just wildly speculating. When does the International Monetary Fund speak about bears on C-Span? Can I just tune in whenever to hear their diabolical plans, or do they get a certain time slot each evening? I tried to Google it and found a bunch of stuff about bear markets, so it seems like bears are definitely a part of the plan.

For real though, your posts do touch on some real and important things. I think income and wealth inequality are major issues and I oppose the privatization and leasing of public lands and all of the fees that go with that, so I think we’re generally on the same side and care about the same issues. But if we want to fix the issues in a meaningful way, we need stick to the facts. Otherwise, the internet becomes like a  giant game of telephone in which information gets passed along and warped and distorted until it works against us and it becomes difficult to tell what’s real and what isn’t.

The imf is behind all of this too but I actually meant the wef. I apologize if I offended anyone.  

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2022/10/what-is-rewilding-nature/#:~:text=Rewilding%20involves%20letting%20nature%20restore,lynx%20and%20Marsican%20brown%20bear.

https://www.weforum.org/videos/23142-this-bear-inspired-one-of-the-world-s-biggest-wildlife-corridors/

C Wilwrote:

Rich folks love to justify why there lifestyle is OK but it’s everyone else not being sustainable when it comes to the outdoors…                         if you don’t like being called out for luxurious lifestyles then don’t brag. And I do not care if you feel you earned it- go tell a hardworking family in a third world about why you earned your privilege. In reality you did not. It’s just dirty paper we pretend is money.

Did you read Bruno’s post? It seems like you are constructing an “elite” to argue against when the other people here are ordinary climbers, just like you. I’m a grad student who made 35-45k/year while living in the Bay Area, and I’m currently making nothing while I finish writing my thesis. I do road trips out of my 1997 Subaru and have never been climbing in another country. Yes, I’m still incredibly lucky and privileged compared to many people, that’s true of anyone who has the time and resources to climb. Are you somehow different?

I never said anything about being scared of beatrs or killing them. It’s just foolish to think re introducing a deadly predator into areas with high human habitation is somehow a good idea and not a political ploy

What would your views be if the generations before us hadn’t killed all the bears? Do you think it was wrong to kill them, or do you support their killing? If you think it was wrong, why not fix that wrong? There are a ton of visitors in Yellowstone and very few bear attacks. The risk is absolutely tiny. Rather than constructing your arguments around the actual level of risk, you just talk in general terms about bears being “deadly” (I.e. scary).

It’s also not my job to educate you about the politics behind all of this

Classic response when unsubstantiated claims are questioned.

our lands are increasingly off limits- let’s not make more un available out of a feel good attempt to make your self feel good. 

I don’t want to make land off limits. I have no issue with targeted, temporary closure to support wildlife sometimes, like raptor closures for certain parts of the year at specific crags or climbs, or cave closures in winter to protect hibernating bats. I don’t agree with closure put in place to protect humans from bear attacks, I think people should be allowed to make their own decisions about risk, but I’m fine with limited closures to protect bears if they are needed.

this is a war over resources. A class war. If you want to make my lands off limits and or charge me- then you sir are the enemy of the people. 

Don’t act as if you are speaking on behalf of impoverished people. People in need have many struggles, but limited seasonal closures to protect wildlife in some parts of some wilderness areas is not one of them. Get real. Look in the mirror. You are a climber, I’m guessing you want to hike or climb in these areas, and you want to be able to do that whenever and wherever you want with no restrictions. Fine. But stop pretending you’re doing this on behalf of starving peasants in pre-revolutionary France. I stand with you against excessive fees for public use of public lands run by private contractors. I also like bears and wildlife. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that there is any connection between these things.

Edit: Only saw this was deleted after I posted. My bad, wasn’t doing that on purpose.

As a disabled person the result of nothing I did- and being poor as a result- I do speak out on behalf of those with less means.  Pretending closures of public lands is no big deal because YOU can afford to go elsewhere is an entitled attitude.
I also deleted my post an hour before your lengthy response. I guess you saved it for posterity. I didn’t bother to read the diatribe about how this person earned this or that- you really don’t, and I do not care. Not everyone is afforded such opportunities. Bragging about your wealth or how you deserve it is pretty petty considering the luck, and circumstances involved.
As for bears you might as well trundle rocks at the crag. I mean it’s natural and few people get killed by rockfall right? And plus it won’t affect YOU. And that’s all that matters. If someone points out that it’s dangerous to induce rockfall- just remind them you are a steward of nature and they can pay to go elsewhere. Call em a coward too

The nps tested old bear spray canisters once- for good reason- during this ill advised test they found about half the spray failed to discshargd or it weakly sprayed out the can. And my boss son was mauled by a grizzly. It’s not as rare as you may think.
I do not climb anymore- can’t physically. I walk the same public trail over and over because I can not afford to drive anywhere to recreate. When my local trail closes- so will my recreation opportunities. Don’t be so smug

CalGrizzly. Org just released a feasibility study that recommended putting 1200 Grizzlies in California including 800 in the Ca/Nv sierra, 200 near LA and some up north.

If Tahoe garbage fed bears can reach 500 lbs, imagine “the bigger the bear”

https://wyofile.com/federal-state-safety-net-didnt-save-worker-from-2014-bear-attack/

15 k…. Damn. 

"There were all kinds of things I was afraid of at first, ranging from grizzly bears to ‘mean’ horses and gun-fighters; but by acting as if I was not afraid I gradually ceased to be afraid.”
– Teddy Roosevelt

Stileswrote:

"There were all kinds of things I was afraid of at first, ranging from grizzly bears to ‘mean’ horses and gun-fighters; but by acting as if I was not afraid I gradually ceased to be afraid.”
– Teddy Roosevelt

Sounds like climbing 

One more time...WHY don't we all just get along?  There is room here to make thoughtful comprises that benefit ALL. Nobody likes them but it is the world we live in.  EveryBODY needs to adapt to the world we know live in while respecting ALL life and making compromises.  If we don't, nothing works. I do not like it either...but we must find common ground or we spin on this and many other threads without any positive outcomes. 

Most hippie communes ended in the same way. The people on the title who legally “owned” the property had the rest of the people forcibly removed- regardless of who contributed and actually owned what.  They too thought it was “our land.”  Until the police told them to gtfo the land they did not have legal rights too
Cream.
Cash rules everything around me. It sucks.
I pledged Alliehence to the flag ever school day as a kid- now I cringe at the corporation I find myself living in.
so no- I will not get along in this new war on the poor over resources. Many people are making bank over the fact so many have willingly gone along with these scams over false promises.
member when recreation gov was just for Covid…, yeah… they had planned it for twenty years previously.  I have found gov plans for recreation gov from the early 2000’s.. must have been a conspiracy that they planned for such a fortuitous event…

So no- I will not go along with the political 30 by 30 nonsense of “ re wilding” my public lands with an apex predator that has a bad attitude if encountered 

Teddy Rosevelt had a horse and firearms- what did he have to worry about.  Walking alone with a can- not so warm and fuzzy. Also- what skill prevents grizzly attacks? That’s right- nothing

C Wilwrote:

….So no- I will not go along with the political 30 by 30 nonsense of “ re wilding” my public lands with an apex predator that has a bad attitude if encountered ……

 Best for you to stay in the gym where it’s safe.  

Shall people stay indoors to stay safe when these animals are released in their backyard?

The proposal is for re introduction. Not for things to remain the same

Again- you might as well trundle rocks at the crag. It’s just as safe, natural, and people can just stay in the gym. Right?