400 Grizzlies in the Cascades

Climbing Weaselwrote:

Wolves aren’t exactly the main problem for livestock or humans, as you say, but highly territorial, easily spooked, 300-500 pound average killing machines are a considerable problem. Personally I have no wish to come around a corner of an approach trail and be face to face with one gnawing on some carcass or other. With more of them, those chances go up. It’s simple math- larger population=larger number of interactions, some of which will inevitably have a bad outcome for both parties, which in turn provides yet another chance for access issues. I’m not in favor of “eliminating” grizzly bears, but I am also not in favor of increasing drastically more into high traffic areas where they inevitably interact with us, and us with them. 

Anyone remember the cane toads? 

80-90% OF A GRIZZLY BEARS DIET IS VEGAN (grizzlies in Alberta were found to have 90% vegan diet, Alaskan bears eat a lot of fish, so some do eat more meat than others but still). Anyway, I'd say thay makes them decidedly NOT a "killing machine". Straight propaganda. Why are you even talking if you don't know basic facts. 

and you are never going to come around a corner to see a bear or a wolf eating. Seeing a wolf or bear with a kill from closer than 1/2 a mile is a lifetime experience even for people that are avid watchers. 

And no it's not simple math. Species distribution is not homogeneous over a landscape, but what do I know, I only spent my masters degree modeling that very thing. Animals avoid certain areas, they especially avoid human areas. Newsflash: ANIMALS DON'T LIKE YOU. Even though you think you are the center of the Earth, the animals do not agree. 

Grizzly bears are all over teton, cirque the towers/other wind river range climbs. Occasionally they're even in ten sleep.

A bunch of you sound like scared little boys that don't know how to operate a bear spray canister or read a book about wildlife behavior. The way to manage wildlife is not to be so terrified that you have to kill all the predators within a 100 mile radius of a place you hangout. And... how selfish to think that a climbing area should take precedence over the well being if a species when we need more diversity in the gene pool. It's just ridiculous, all out here trying to be a macho man killing animals, when it really just demonstrates your irrational fear of animals. And I thought climbers knew how to manage fear... guess not.

Bears and wolves complete very important tasks for humanity. Bears are critical to managing climate induced changes. Y'all are ungrateful as fuck for what bears and wolves do for you. 

Jess Pressowrote:

And no it's not simple math. Species distribution is not homogeneous over a landscape, but what do I know, I only spent my masters degree modeling that very thing. Animals avoid certain areas, they especially avoid human areas. Newsflash: ANIMALS DON'T LIKE YOU. Even though you think you are the center of the Earth, the animals do not agree. 

I've often wondered why grizzlies don't migrate down into the North Cascades out of BC on their own if our environment is expected to sustain them.  As far as I understand there is already a healthy population just across the border and I don't think our border guards are checking their immigration status.  It seems like it is well within the abilities of a grizzly to come down into northern Washington if it were attractive to them.  Do you have any thoughts on this?  I appreciate your perspective.

Sorry JM, I think you missed JPs point.

Jess Pressowrote:

80-90% OF A GRIZZLY BEARS DIET IS VEGAN (grizzlies in Alberta were found to have 90% vegan diet, Alaskan bears eat a lot of fish, so some do eat more meat than others but still). Anyway, I'd say thay makes them decidedly NOT a "killing machine". Straight propaganda. Why are you even talking if you don't know basic facts. 

firstly, chill out. I haven’t personally insulted you or grizzlies. They are a killing machine in that when and if you spook one, or come across them unexpectedly, or any number of unexpected interactions which will increase the more there are, it is very easy for them to take you to pieces. Have you ever been charged by one as you came around a corner and had three seconds to contemplate the end of your life in a sudden, excruciating flash of angry claws and teeth? That gives one a hell of a perspective. Thankfully it was a bluff charge, but people do get hurt by grizzlies, and no matter what it was like historically, more grizzlies in human areas=more chance of bad interactions. I don’t want bad interactions to increase- that’s a problem for both grizzlies and humans. 

Jess Pressowrote:

But what do I know, I only spent my masters degree modeling that very thing. Animals avoid certain areas, they especially avoid human areas.

Seems like you’ve got some new research that’s overturning decades of accepted wisdom - cool!

Can I quote your MS thesis on this when I leave unsecured food around a human picnic area or a human parking lot area or a human garbage area?

(Skip the jokes about human parking and human picnics and human garbage and go straight to the part where you’re arguing about how bears avoid human areas, please. Thank you.)

Lest we forget this documentary, folks.  Was this Ken Burns work?  Just saying-- if it could happen there, it can happen here.  Not only users lose...

Jess Pressowrote:

80-90% OF A GRIZZLY BEARS DIET IS VEGAN (grizzlies in Alberta were found to have 90% vegan diet, Alaskan bears eat a lot of fish, so some do eat more meat than others but still). Anyway, I'd say thay makes them decidedly NOT a "killing machine". Straight propaganda. Why are you even talking if you don't know basic facts. 

and you are never going to come around a corner to see a bear or a wolf eating. Seeing a wolf or bear with a kill from closer than 1/2 a mile is a lifetime experience even for people that are avid watchers.....

I have NOT run into a grizzly with a kill, but on July 4, 2022, my partner and I came around a corner on the Flow Lake trail in Kootenay Nat'l Park, BC and met 2 grizzly cubs. My first thought was to wonder where Mama grizzly was.  The cubs were about a dozen feet in  front of me in the middle of the trail and my partner was about 30 feet behind. I instantly turned around and walked as calmly as I could in the opposite direction, telling my partner what I had seen and emphasized NOT to run. We had been going slightly downhill and after about 20 seconds I turned to see if we were being followed.  Fortunately I saw the 2 cubs running down the trail away from us followed by their mother. Mama then stopped, stood on her hind legs and turned looking towards us, from maybe 100m away. So I turned back away from her and we continued walking up the trail.

We were about 5 miles from the highway and the bears were between us and our car.  I didn't want to take the chance of running into them again on the trail, so while we knew where they were, we did a big circle detour back in their direction below the trail through the slash. The area had burned in a forest fire in 2003, and there were a lot of downed trees and good visibility. We didn't see the bears again. My partner remarked that just before our encounter she had been wondering why all the flower tops were missing when they had been visible an hour before when we had hiked up the trail. She hadn't mentioned this though and we realized the grizzlies had probably been walking in front of us munching flowers along the way. 

This encounter was certainly a lifetime experience for us both and something I will always remember.  I'm actually very grateful to have had this experience, in spite of it being so close and the potential risk. It's hard to adequately express how special running into these grizzly cubs recently on the trail is for me. It may seem foolish to some people, but I don't and have never carried bear spray in the wilderness. I grew up in northern BC as a child and have immense respect for wild animals, especially bear and moose, given their size. I travel quietly in nature, and have had quite a few close encounters with black bears, including a mother and cubs. Though they are not grizzlies, black bears have always run away and in one case climbed high up a tree. The only other time I've seen grizzlies was a couple decades ago on a bear awareness course with biologist Wayne McCrory. From an adjacent ridge, through binoculars, we watched them about a mile away turning over huge chunks of turf with their claws to feed on wild onions.

I do have a friend who was attacked by a black bear, which came back and bit her in the leg when she got up after playing dead. This was planting trees in BC. I've always depended on body language and calmness around bears. I'm glad I haven't been bluff charged !

Jabroni McChufferson wrote:

When you say modeling what do you mean exactly? Sounds like computer cubicle talk.

Yellowstone bears scavenge lots of elk. Iv seen a grizzly chase down an elk calf for her cubs. It was incredible. So yes they are killing machines and scavengers.

That being said obviously bears are not attacking humans as food but as a competitor or when they feel threatened.  

I’m not Jess, but I am married to an environmental statistician. When she says “model”, it’s the mathematical method by which partial observation is extended to an entire area. Think political polls, but for where bears shit, or where birds fly (and are struck by turbine blades…)

This isn’t wild ass guessing, but a pretty robust science based on *mountains* of observations, sometimes collected for centuries, to describe animal behavior.

Model selection is often pretty contentious, because embedded in all of it are assumptions about how the animals act, and that’s why model selection is always performed at least in collaboration with, often directly by, experts in whatever behavior being modeled.

“and you are never going to come around a corner to see a bear or a wolf eating. Seeing a wolf or bear with a kill from closer than 1/2 a mile is a lifetime experience even for people that are avid watchers. “

My wife saw a wolf munching on road kill yesterday on 395 north of Spokane.

Also see where an elk was killed on the porch in Sierra Valley CA a couple of days ago. That pair of wolves has killed like what, 18 cows and calves in the last month? Some while Fish and Wildlife was there patrolling. No amount of hazing worked. Killing for fun one could say. Just like the outdoor house cats that are ravaging the ground nesting birds in the lot behind my house. They have plenty to eat. They don’t need a whole calf every 2 days.

Petsfed 00wrote:

I’m not Jess, but I am married to an environmental statistician. When she says “model”, it’s the mathematical method by which partial observation is extended to an entire area. Think political polls, but for where bears shit, or where birds fly (and are struck by turbine blades…)

This isn’t wild ass guessing, but a pretty robust science based on *mountains* of observations, sometimes collected for centuries, to describe animal behavior.

Model selection is often pretty contentious, because embedded in all of it are assumptions about how the animals act, and that’s why model selection is always performed at least in collaboration with, often directly by, experts in whatever behavior being modeled.

“All models are wrong. Some are useful.”

Ackley The Improvedwrote:

 They don’t need a whole calf every 2 days.

Um... Costco right? No one NEEDS it.... Yet we love it. : -) 

Ackley The Improvedwrote:

“and you are never going to come around a corner to see a bear or a wolf eating. Seeing a wolf or bear with a kill from closer than 1/2 a mile is a lifetime experience even for people that are avid watchers. “

My wife saw a wolf munching on road kill yesterday on 395 north of Spokane.

Also see where an elk was killed on the porch in Sierra Valley CA a couple of days ago. That pair of wolves has killed like what, 18 cows and calves in the last month? Some while Fish and Wildlife was there patrolling. No amount of hazing worked. Killing for fun one could say. Just like the outdoor house cats that are ravaging the ground nesting birds in the lot behind my house. They have plenty to eat. They don’t need a whole calf every 2 days.

Is this the exception that proves the rule?  Seems like we have a pretty big audience here on MP. Anyone else ever see a wolf eating anything in the wilderness?  Anyone else ever see a wolf up close?

I live in Europe (Switzerland).  Many of the issues discussed here are being played out in densely-packed mountain areas in France, Switzerland, Italy, Slovenian, and so on. 

There are European grizzlies in national parks in Italy, and these animals do roam free from the parks.  There was a tradgedy when a trail runner in Italy was killed by a grizzly bear two years ago, for example. 

There are now wolves throughout the Alps, with predictable tensions between farmers and hunters, who are generally anti-wolf, and those who are happy to know the wolves are there.

The debate has some interesting dimensions.  First, on the smaller areas of land in the Alps, measure like portable electric fencing and herd protection dogs, such as the Great Pyrenean and variants, can protect domestic animals quite well.  In some areas, federal or regional payouts to farmers for domestic animals that are killed are dependent upon the claimants demonstrating the use of and commitment to fences, dogs, and so on.  

It should come as no surprise to anybody on MP (dogs at the crags!) that the herd protection dogs themselves generate controversy.  They can be downright frightening, and have attacked strangers.  Hikers perhaps face more risk from these dogs than from wolves or bears.  In regions where these issues are contentious, the farmers and hunters appear to have taken a very "loose" approach to keeping the protection dogs adequately coralled away from areas where humans pass, with an attitude that can be generally summarized as, "Take the wolves away, and we'll take the dogs away."  

Something that makes this more interesting/complex is that in most areas of the Alps the farmers are heavily subzidized by the government, which is to say, the general public. 

I worked in a small town in the Swiss Alps where the local farmers received up to 65% of their income from the federal government. The farmers and hunters in the town were generally adamant about their hatred of wolves and bears, faught passionately for their right to hunt chamoix and ibex as they pleased, and resented any infrignement on their way of life by people in "far away" cities throughout the rest of their country, but because their entire way of life was being supported by those people in cities, a strong case could be made that they simply had to do as others wished, that is, allow wolves and bears to live in the mountains, and modify their herding and hunting practices.

Zoooming out, the name "the Alps" comes from the word "alp" which describes a open, grassy meadow in the mountains where cows and sheep graze in the summer months. 

That, of course, reflects a heavily modified landscape, crafted by humans for their purposes.  If there were no humans present, there would be far less "alps," more mixed woodland, more predators such as wolves, bears, and lynx, and widely different distributions of chamois and ibex, and dozens of other species.  

In this sense, the alps represent what the mountains look like when farmers, herders, and hunters change the flora and fauna to suit their life and values.  

Is this the kind of "nature" that people want in a place like the North Cascades (where I have spend considerable time)?

I highly value the wild areas of the US, places like the Wind Rivers and the North Cascades.  In my view, these are the places where wolves, bears, and mountain lions should roam free.  

If that means that I have to change my behavior, carry bells, bear spray, bear canisters, and bear fencing, or just not hike and climb in certain places, that is a price I am completely willing to pay. 

As I said earlier, at some point, we have to put the animals first, ahead of our desires to "recreate".  

We could interpret the word "recreate" as recreation, or as re-creating an impoverished, artificial landcape, like the Alps.   

It's our choice.

Jimmy Brickerwrote:

Is this the exception that proves the rule?  Seems like we have a pretty big audience here on MP. Anyone else ever see a wolf eating anything in the wilderness?  Anyone else ever see a wolf up close?

I have seen a wolf in the wild. Last deer season we heard them every day in 3 different locations. My friend has video of one walking around his truck. Another friend was followed back to his truck after taking a pee. One wolf  had a picture in the paper here in town two weeks ago chasing ground squirrels at the golf course. Use a predator call to up your chances of seeing one

They’ve taken over the roles of the coyotes. Not rare. Not a panacea for habitat problems.

A grizzly or ten in the Cascades, ok. 400? Is pope Donald catholic?

To quote Rodney King, "Can't we all (my words-man AND other animals) just get along?"

Jabroni McChufferson wrote:

Sounds like computer cubicle talk. ... I’m more curious as to where and what she is basing her models off of. As myself running around and rock climbing and hunting in grizzly territory 

Breaking news: Anonymous unqualified man on internet questions qualified woman's research.

Is there a tariff on all these imported grizzlies? What will their imigration status be??  What about cubs born to immigrant Canadian grizzlies within America? Will the cubs stay if their parents scamper back across the border? If a grizz plunders a picinic basket, will it be sent home while its family remains?  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W88Sact1kws

Ignore that they repeatedly call elk "deer" and claim that beavers eat trees.  The rest is solid.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJb5dS2ME_i/?igsh=NDFzNmhuNTVkaGIz

More grizzlies=more of this

Same amount of grizzlies=same amount of that

Same amount of that=good for grizzlies, good for hikers

More grizzlies=more human bear interactions=bad

It’s that simple. 

Climbing Weaselwrote:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJb5dS2ME_i/?igsh=NDFzNmhuNTVkaGIz

More grizzlies=more of this

Same amount of grizzlies=same amount of that

Same amount of that=good for grizzlies, good for hikers

More grizzlies=more human bear interactions=bad

It’s that simple. 

More grizzlies + restrictions on human activity = not necesarily more of this.