Best Daisy/Fifi Set-Up for Trade Routes

Hi everyone,

Complete noob here with a question about the best daisy/fifi set-up for trade Valley routes (in particular, South Face of the Column, West Face of Leaning Tower, RNWF of Half Dome, the Nose, etc). I've done a fair amount of reading, and people seem to prefer one of the following four set-ups (of course there are other set-ups, like using a regular fifi hook, but these are the main ones I've seen mentioned):

(1) No daises and an Alfifi.

(2) Regular daises and an Alfifi.

(3) Adjustable daises and no Alfifi.

(4) Adjustable daises and an Alfifi. 

I'm curious about which set-up people think is best because there seem to be advantages and disadvantages for all of them (e.g., fewer tangles without daisies, higher risk of dropping the aiders, etc.). Which set-up do people prefer, and why? Relatedly, is an Alfifi necessary on trade routes if you have adjustable daises? Or is an Alfifi overkill because, if needed, can you just pull yourself up using the adjustable daisies? And if adjustable daises are the best option, should I go for buckle style daisies (e.g., Yates) or something like the Petzl Evolv Adjust? The Evolv Adjust seems cool because it is stronger and you don't have to worry about it twisting, but on the other hand it is more difficult (cannot?) be released under load (how often do you need to do this on trade routes?).

Thanks so much for your time and help!

I'm in a very similar position to you, but I'll provide my observations so far.

I'm a big fan of having my ladders 'free solo' most of the time. This reduces tangles and helps you to move more efficiently. It has helped me to find the 'flow' as a beginner. 

What I end up doing is impacted by terrain:

Slab/vert with hand holds: clip ladder to piece and hold myself close to the rock by holing onto the grab loop or holds on the rock

Slab/vert without hand holds: clip ladder to piece, hook alfifi to ladder. Alfifi holds me to close to the rock while placing the next piece 

Overhang roofs: I used my alfifi like an adjustable daisy, and used a yates adjustable daisy. I did this for the first time on the kor roof. Worked fine enough for a short section. If I was doing west face (admittedly haven't done it yet) I would probably use 2 adjustable daisys

Tbh, there's pros and cons to each method. Try them out and see what you like. 

Also, I tied a clip loop put of paracord on my alfifi. When I was using it like a daisy, I clipped that to my ladder. Kinda sus, but I was ok with it for body weight. 

Evolv Adjust + Alfifi is the best setup for me. The alfifi is best for smooth leading and evolv for positioning at belays. On overhanging ground the adjust is nice to temporarily hold your weight while moving the alfifi. Although the alfifi is not mandatory, its much smoother to move and easier to top step. I prefer rope PASes because they are much stronger than buckle style and cheaper to replace the rope, the petzl ones are easier to adjust than other rope PASes.

hey! Here is my ideal setup!

1. Alfifi (a must!!!!)

2. Petzl evolv adjusts*

*Here's the caveat: On most c1, my daisies sit on the front of my harness, and I "free solo" my ladders. these daisies at the front is where I clip my ladders to so I always know where they are. If I get concerned about some scary pieces or some sketchy hooks, I'll just clip the daisy to whichever ladder needs it at that time, and then remove it when needed!

When going from hook move to hook, especially sideways, or aiding a roof, it is quite nice to be able to tension forward with an petzl adjust, and slowly lower yourself with the daisy. 

also.... at anchors I totally use the Evolv adjusts as a tether sometimes... It's technically not supposed to be used as such, but it is 7.7 rated rope... if I'm going to die someone please jump in but I've been fine thus far.

I’m a #1 fan of the no daisies & an Alfifi.  
not having leashes keeps me free from cluster and allows me to flow much better and climb faster.  

Yup, I taught Skot well!

Of course, they're still attached to your harness. I fully lengthen mine and let them dangle. I use them at the anchor and on my ascenders and the odd hook placement. 

For those of you who "free solo" your aiders, what happens when you bounce test a piece and it blows?  Or when one blows when you get on it but haven't yet clipped the rope to it?  I'd like to try this out but can't see how you don't just drop your aiders all the time...  

When I am bounce testing, it seems like I have a death grip on the piece I'm testing and on the piece that I'm hoping will hold me if it fails.

I can't say that I've taken a hell of a lot of falls while aid climbing but I always seem to get tangled up in my aiders and never lose them. I've gone 50 feet and didn't lose my aiders!

It's not the end of the world either.

I had some noob friends attempting the south face of Washington Column when one of them dropped an aider with an ascender. They immediately bailed. I asked them what the big deal was? Didn't each of them have a set of aiders and a set of ascenders? They said yes. When I pointed out to them that they still had all the necessary gear to complete the route, they looked at me and each other sort of dumbfounded and embarrassed. 

Skot climbs with two sets of aiders just like I do. We have a total of eight aiders on the climb. If one of us drops a set, we still have 6 aiders left.

Thanks. I use Russian Aiders , which are less tangly anyway. But I can't find the titanium rings I used to make them many years ago so I can't make a spare!

evan freeman wrote:

For those of you who "free solo" your aiders, what happens when you bounce test a piece and it blows?  Or when one blows when you get on it but haven't yet clipped the rope to it?  I'd like to try this out but can't see how you don't just drop your aiders all the time...  

Only had this happen twice. I got lucky and caught the ladder on my foot both times. 

Nothing is stopping you from clipping a ladder into the piece you're pretty sure is gonna blow. This slows you down temporarily, but not by much. 

As Mark pointed out, you really don't need ladders for jugging and you don't need jumars for leading. Use your cord, some slings, even the rope can be a makeshift ladder if you need. 

Big wall climbing is a constant problem solving endeavor.  

Mark Hudon wrote:

Skot climbs with two sets of aiders just like I do. We have a total of eight aiders on the climb. If one of us drops a set, we still have 6 aiders left.

What’s the second set of aiders for? Thanks for all the useful info!

We each climb with two aiders on one Biner.

You're standing in one set, you place a piece, clip the second set into it and move up. Clean the bottom set and repeat. 

Mark Hudon wrote:

We each climb with two aiders on one Biner.

You're standing in one set, you place a piece, clip the second set into it and move up. Clean the bottom set and repeat. 

Does this set-up make more sense for hard aid? If you're moving fast on a trade route would you do the same?

Certainly not on the Nose but yes on Zodiac/TT/Virginia/LF/etc. anything that isn’t predominantly free climbing

What does “moving fast on a trade route” mean? What are those routes and how fast is fast?

Two of the fastest aid climbers I know, Cheyne Lempe and Dave Allfrey, use only two ladders that they are attached to with their daisies. If they are out climbing normally and not for outright speed, I find their system awkward and uncomfortable. I don’t climb for speed but still I’m faster than 95% of the people on this forum. (although that is partially an attribute of having been climbing walls for 50 years than any specific technique) 

Mark Hudon wrote:

Certainly not on the Nose but yes on Zodiac/TT/Virginia/LF/etc. anything that isn’t predominantly free climbing

What does “moving fast on a trade route” mean? What are those routes and how fast is fast?

Two of the fastest aid climbers I know, Cheyne Lempe and Dave Allfrey, use only two ladders that they are attached to with their daisies. If they are out climbing normally and not for outright speed, I find their system awkward and uncomfortable. I don’t climb for speed but still I’m faster than 95% of the people on this forum. (although that is partially an attribute of having been climbing walls for 50 years than any specific technique) 

I guess anything around or under 1 hour pitches on the handful of routes that get ~ 90% of valley traffic is what I mean. I've seen some experienced parties scoot up routes like Lurking Fear. 30-60 minutes per pitch seems pretty attainable with sufficient experience.

"experienced parties" and "with sufficient experience". 

Those guys aren't here asking the OP type of questions. They are figuring out what techniques they need to get up their routes quickly.

Mark Hudon wrote:

When I am bounce testing, it seems like I have a death grip on the piece I'm testing and on the piece that I'm hoping will hold me if it fails.

I can't say that I've taken a hell of a lot of falls while aid climbing but I always seem to get tangled up in my aiders and never lose them. I've gone 50 feet and didn't lose my aiders!

It's not the end of the world either.

I had some noob friends attempting the south face of Washington Column when one of them dropped an aider with an ascender. They immediately bailed. I asked them what the big deal was? Didn't each of them have a set of aiders and a set of ascenders? They said yes. When I pointed out to them that they still had all the necessary gear to complete the route, they looked at me and each other sort of dumbfounded and embarrassed. 

Skot climbs with two sets of aiders just like I do. We have a total of eight aiders on the climb. If one of us drops a set, we still have 6 aiders left.

Ever read the Reinhard Karl story about the Heart Route, where he throws his jumar off intentionally in a ill fated attempt to bail, but his efficient German partners make him continue...???