Edelrid Spoc Vs. Petzl Micro Trax

"Is the new industry standard to just wait for Petzl to make innovative new gear then just RIP off the design? But oh look we cut some extra holes in our cheap knockoff to make it 25grams lighter? Less than an once.... sorry I'll keep buying Petzl so they can keep funding r&d to make cool new stuff. The reason this is less expensive is its cheap junk knockoff crap just like all the imitation grigri garbage on the market. Is your safety worth only $25 dollars to you? Is giving up piece of mind worth shaving 25grams of weight off."

To suggest that Edelrid doesn't innovate is a bit of a stretch. See: Rap Line, new aramid-infused 8.9 Swift rope, bluesign rope production, etc.....

And as for Spoc vs. Micro, on the other thread a Micro user posted that he had the exact same situation with a Micro, so I guess, given that there's been a single case of a carabiner getting cross-loaded in there, the Micro is now unsafe, too?

Anson __ wrote:

If you can't safely use a screwlock, then Edelrid should say so. But they explicitly say that you can. And an anti-crossloading carabineer wouldn't necessarily fix this, it could still jam on the screwgate or just sideways on the crab. And if you have to do more than a chest harness with this device and not others then that is a dangerous design flaw and I stand by what I said: there are safer alternatives.

All of which was covered in the prior posts on the topic. Maybe read them before smearing people. 

1. TR soloing is not an intended use of this device, so edelrid shouldn't have to cover which biners are ok for it. TR solo is not the same as using an ascender. 

2. Loading the spoc in the small end of a BD gridlock (like the instructions for use with a gri-gri) would prevent any interaction with the screw gate. Another option is rubber stoppers/grommets on the biner.

3. Having to do "more than a chest harness", or more steps in general, is not unsafe. Maybe inconvenient, but that's part of the trade-offs of using different systems or devices, which are the responsibility of a climber to understand. Or do you think screw gate lockers are unsafe because they have more steps than auto lockers?

"All of which was covered in prior posts on the topic. Maybe read them."

I'll agree with others that it's helpful you pointed out this failure mode, so thanks. But I take issue with your attitude that you could/should have done nothing differently and were using the device as intended, so it's strictly a design flaw.

Anson __ wrote:

If you can't safely use a screwlock, then Edelrid should say so. But they explicitly say that you can. And an anti-crossloading carabineer wouldn't necessarily fix this, it could still jam on the screwgate or just sideways on the crab. And if you have to do more than a chest harness with this device and not others then that is a dangerous design flaw and I stand by what I said: there are safer alternatives.

All of which was covered in the prior posts on the topic. Maybe read them before smearing people. 

Jesus man. See the problem is that you are using the device for something it WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR. Edelrid doesnt give a rats ass if almost hit the dirt because you were using it in an off label kind of way. If edelrid/petzl/CT or any other brand making some form of a progress capture device made the connection hole smaller, it would greatly reduce the devices usability for its actual intended purpose. As a general rule, when you want to use something in a way it wasnt designed, you lose every right to get mad if it doesnt work the way you want it to, because it is up to YOU to ensure that it will work effectively, not the manufacturer. And its not like you need an engineering degree to solve this issue, all you need is two rubber gaskets and its not an issue anymore.

If it needs an anticrossloading carabineer to use safely, then Edelrid needs to say so. As it is, they say a screwlock is fine, which isn't true.

If top rope soloing isn't a recommended use for a thing that will obviously be used for that, then they need to say so.

As is, it's advertised as an alternative to the microtrax, which it is a clone of, and the microtrax is the most popular top rope soloing device.

And I've been climbing for around a decade and a half, though that's not relevant at all- unless ad hominems add to the conversation? How long have you been climbing?

Post a simple safety report on how a device is more likely to fail than alternatives, and every bored boomer, troll, and armchair pendant on MP turns the thread toxic...like always. What a great community!

Anson __ wrote: If it needs an anticrossloading carabineer to use safely, then Edelrid needs to say so. As it is, they say a screwlock is fine, which isn't true.

If top rope soloing isn't a recommended use for a thing that will obviously be used for that, then they need to say so.

As is, it's advertised as an alternative to the microtrax, which it is a clone of, and the microtrax is the most popular top rope soloing device.

And I've been climbing for around a decade and a half, though that's not relevant at all- unless ad hominems add to the conversation? How long have you been climbing?

Post a simple safety report on how a device is more likely to fail than alternatives, and every bored boomer, troll, and armchair pendant on MP turns the thread toxic...like always. What a great community!

Dude, you're using a device for something it's NOT even remotely designed to do. When used properly, as per the recommendations of the manufacturer, it doesn't need a special biner and it works just fine. The micro Trax is also not a belay device. 

Rope soloing is a niche part of the sport and requires a certain degree of ingenuity and risk acceptance, and as you discovered, there's a very good reason that most people use backups when we do things with climbing gear that the thing isn't designed for.

Me, I first roped up around 1995. You sure have been climbing a long time for your account age, and how little you know about what you're doing.

Anson __ wrotePost a simple safety report on how a device is more likely to fail than alternatives, and every bored boomer, troll, and armchair pendant on MP turns the thread toxic...

You forgot IFMGA guide and AMGA textbook author.... what does he know?
​https://www.google.com/search?q=rob+coppolillo​​​

He's gotta be the only cat that's been climbing 10 years and doesn't know who Rob is.

Anson __ wrote:

This would be better advice if there were an official source for climbing accidents. If there is, and we're all missing it, please do let us know.

Stumbled across this gem in a post back in early March from Mr. I've been climbing 10 years.

Anson __ wrote:

The spoc is more likely to fail than the micro Trax because it had a bigger holes, and what do you suggest besides using a chest harness to avoid this so-called user error? 

It's more dangerous, simple as that. Pick something else

Um have you actually tested this?  On top of that as many others have mentioned, you aren't using the device according to specs.  It was not designed to be used as a TR solo.  The manufacture doesn't have to list every limitation of the device.  They give you a set way that it was designed.  If you deviate from that then you are on your own.  

I totally agree that the Spoc isn't dangerous when used properly. Cross-loading will break many things in unexpected ways. This argument is akin to carabiners being unsafe because they can break if torqued in unusual ways by bolts (nose getting hooked a la Danny Woods).

However, I am not sure that the Spoc isn't designed for TR solo. In the manual ( media.edelrid.de/images/att… ), it sure looks like the climber is going for a quick TR burn in 4a. Also, it does mention to use a pear or oval shaped carabiner in the manual (didn't know this before looking at it).

The Petzl Microtraxion is advertised as a self-belay device (https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/General-principles-for-solo-climbing-with-a-fixed-belay-rope), if used in a certain way. I'd assume the Spoc would be expected to be functional in the same way.

I do agree that the dude saying the Spoc is dangerous is total bogus. I've had the Spoc open on me while TR solo'ing (back-up behind a traxion) because I jammed the release cord between a rock and my body, the cam opened. I imagine the same could happen on a Microtrax, if a rock got pressed against the release tab. Just need to think critically about how these devices behave uniquely and where they might fail. As the manual says, "Errors and carelessness may cause severe accidents, injury, and even death."

I remember we were debating whether or not to include the Equivocator/Chilean Death Hitch in the MGM and I said to Chauvin, "Dunno, man, should we include this? Are we inviting carnge? This thing can be sketchy is you tie it incorrectly..."

Chauvin laughed, "Isn't every knot sketchy if you tie it incorrectly?!"

DUH! The wisdom!

coppolillo wrote:To suggest that Edelrid doesn't innovate is a bit of a stretch. See: Rap Line, new aramid-infused 8.9, Swift rope, bluesign rope production, etc.....

Not to mention the friggin Giga-jul...

Both devices can have crossload issues so this whole argument isn't really relevant. You should be using a Maillon Rapide Delta with a belay keeper or an oval locker with belay keeper or rubber grommets to keep things centered. What is relevant is the surface area of teeth on the Spoc is smaller than the Micro Trax. Less surface area potentially means more force per sq cm. Yann Camus of Bliss Climbing has done some initial testing showing that perhaps the Spoc damages the rope at lower forces compared to a Micro Trax. Granted 4kn is still probably more than you are ever going to generate top rope soloing unless you really mess something up, it seems silly to pick the Spoc over the Micro Trax.

Credit: Yann Camus of Bliss Climbing

Great input. Thanks for sharing. My takeaway is either is probably quite safe using a 10mm rope?

Ryan Mac wrote: Not to mention the friggin Giga-jul...

Or the fly catchers

Remember that time Anson got owned in the comments?

Old thread, I know, but curious if anybody has seen anything on SPOC with respect to skinny static glacier ropes like petzl's hyperstatic 6mm "RAD cord". I notice that the SPOC is rated for Elderid's 6mm semi-dynamic RAP line https://edelrid.com/us-en/sport/ropes/rap-line-protect-pro-dry-6mm but I can't find any test or opinion on how the SPOC might serve as a progress capture on the Petzl cord. I'm only concerned about the crevasse rescue scenario. I'm guessing the issue, if there is one, is something to do with the SPOC damaging the Petzl cords sheath. I have to say (I own a RAD line and a SPOC) that it **looks** like it ought to work

no kidding Petzl RAD hyperstatic cord vs Elderid RAP line. similar names, both 6mm,  but the Elderid line will hold a UIAA fall whereas on the petzl hyperstatic cord such an event would presumably be catastrophic.

Mathew Zaleski, Golden BC

J Mathew Zaleski wrote:

Old thread, I know, but curious if anybody has seen anything on SPOC with respect to skinny static glacier ropes like petzl's hyperstatic 6mm "RAD cord". I notice that the SPOC is rated for Elderid's 6mm semi-dynamic RAP line https://edelrid.com/us-en/sport/ropes/rap-line-protect-pro-dry-6mm but I can't find any test or opinion on how the SPOC might serve as a progress capture on the Petzl cord. I'm only concerned about the crevasse rescue scenario. I'm guessing the issue, if there is one, is something to do with the SPOC damaging the Petzl cords sheath. I have to say (I own a RAD line and a SPOC) that it **looks** like it ought to work

no kidding Petzl RAD hyperstatic cord vs Elderid RAP line. similar names, both 6mm,  but the Elderid line will hold a UIAA fall whereas on the petzl hyperstatic cord such an event would presumably be catastrophic.

Mathew Zaleski, Golden BC

Given that Petzl approves RAD line + microtrax, you should be fine. There’s no UIAA/EN spec for skinny tech cord that works with toothed ascenders/PCPs.

J Mathew Zaleski wrote:

Old thread, I know, but curious if anybody has seen anything on SPOC with respect to skinny static glacier ropes like petzl's hyperstatic 6mm "RAD cord". I notice that the SPOC is rated for Elderid's 6mm semi-dynamic RAP line https://edelrid.com/us-en/sport/ropes/rap-line-protect-pro-dry-6mm but I can't find any test or opinion on how the SPOC might serve as a progress capture on the Petzl cord. I'm only concerned about the crevasse rescue scenario. I'm guessing the issue, if there is one, is something to do with the SPOC damaging the Petzl cords sheath. I have to say (I own a RAD line and a SPOC) that it **looks** like it ought to work

no kidding Petzl RAD hyperstatic cord vs Elderid RAP line. similar names, both 6mm,  but the Elderid line will hold a UIAA fall whereas on the petzl hyperstatic cord such an event would presumably be catastrophic.

Mathew Zaleski, Golden BC

I haven’t seen a formal compatability test. I use a Spoc with their 6mm RLP.

Easy enough for you to do as a confidence builder though; hang the Spoc from a sufficient anchor or beam, push a couple inches of the RAD through it, clip your belay loop to a butterfly on the cord, and bounce. At worst, you trash two inches of rope. At best, nothing changes and you gain confidence in its compatability.

So I just had a 8.5mm rope somehow jam between the teeth and the sliding gate of my spoc while using it to ascend for a stuck rope retrieval. The jam prevented me from opening the spoc; it basically was fused to the rope. I couldn't dislodge it and bailed as we were in the back country and losing light. 

So that's fun.