Lowering Belayer Beneath Anchor in FF2 Potential Scenario

Hello MP,

If/when lowering the belayer below the anchor to get more rope into the system in a potential FF2 scenario, what are the preferred methods? I'm specifically thinking of hanging belay situations where all of the belayer's weight is on the anchor in a swinging lead sort of scenario, though block lead details are welcome also.

Assuming you're talking about a "chariot" belay? The usual way is to have the belayer clove into the anchor with as much rope as feels appropriate. It's annoying to do in a truly hanging stance where you can't just clamber down.

If swinging leads, either the previous leader thinks ahead and sets themselves up when building the anchor or they need to lower themselves down into position. I think the easiest way is to get the new leader ready to climb and clipped to a high Jesus piece, take up hard on the rope, extend the belayer's clove, and have the belayer lower themselves while counterbalanced by the leader.

Block leads might be easier to set up: the follower just doesn't climb all the way up to the anchor and the leader cloves them in once they're in position. Gear transfer can be annoying if this is far away, but dropping a loop of rope can solve that.

Thanks for the reply! There's a lot to think about there. The lowering can be done right off the anchor then, too, right? New leader's side of the rope get clove hitched to anchor (master point, shelf, bomber top piece) and the belayer gets on and hangs off the other side on their belay device; pay out slack through their own original clove hitch; lower down until hanging on their clove hitch again; leader takes out clove and climbs as usual. 

Here's another possible setup.

When after reaching the belay stance and recognizing that the next pitch has a crux posing a potential FF2, the original leader can instead: build the 3 piece anchor as he would have anyway, but then continue to climb. If he were to fall after leaving the belay stance it would be a much lower FF as there is all the rope in the system going all the way down to the belayer and he would fall on a solid 3 piece anchor. When the leader gets through the crux and places gear (and maybe place 2 pieces) he would down climb or lower back to the belay stance and belay up his follower.

When the next leader arrives and starts the next pitch he would be on a top rope belay helping to safeguard him through the crux.

This setup is similar to the chariot belay but with a few mods. This setup helps assure a low FF going through the crux.

Thanks for the reply Marty. In that scenario, the belayer brings up the follower on the previous pitch on "toprope" through the Jesus piece(s) then?

if it isn't free hanging i have always just cloved in long and batmanned down the rope. pretty straight forward for the most part.  if it is really steep you may need to down prussik, or similar.

Christopher Antimiewrote:

Thanks for the reply Marty. In that scenario, the belayer brings up the follower on the previous pitch on "toprope" through the Jesus piece(s) then?

You could belay either way. I would think belaying the follower off the anchor (in guide mode) would probably be better. This would require a bit of rope management but nothing really complicated.

The belayer/follower could put themselves on a Munter and they could lower themselves down from the master point. Then clove the brake strand of the Munter to their belay loop to close off their loop.

Thank you to everyone for your responses! MP made me slow down on my own comments so I'll follow up now.

Marty, thanks for the clarification. I was worried about the rope being redirected above and rope management in general but I was just tripping out for lack of better description; you have the right idea.

Slim, to prusik your way down, is there a way to do it on a single friction hitch without doing the jerk-and-slide? I like the idea of a friction hitch for micro-adjustments to your stance when hanging too far off the anchor for direct access to the clove hitch.

Alex, I like the idea but I'll have to mess around with it before committing myself to trying it in steep/hanging terrain. In this situation, you are opting for the munter instead of the normal clove hitch tie-in, right? Maybe some sort of friction hitch backup or second munter on the belay loop(then tied off with the mule) makes sense but the idea of clove hitching the brake strand while hanging off the anchor sounds real uncomfortable personally. Maybe the clove hitch can be tied off while pas'ed so that no tying is necessary once in position. Lmk if I'm missing something here. 

What I’ve done when the leader notices that there are gonna be hard moves off the belay anchor or they weren’t able to find a truly bomber anchor is just have the follower(s) stop a couple pieces below the anchor or at the last piece and then put the leader on belay there.  I’ve had to employ this tactic just a couple times, once in Patagonia where the leader was in a wide section and only had one piece that would fit for the anchor, and other time was in the Canadian Rockies where the “anchor” was just a beak and shitty stopper.  It is a good trick to have in your bag but you should probably have a boat load of experience before putting yourself in situations where this technique is the most reasonable solution.

Fixed Point Lead Belay is my go to is these situations. It's been used in Europe for years, we've been slow to adopt it here. 

jselwynwrote:

Fixed Point Lead Belay is my go to is these situations. It's been used in Europe for years, we've been slow to adopt it here. 

Does that solve the problem though? If I'm worried about falling onto the anchor, wouldn't a fixed belay be more painful? And your belayer is still there in your fall zone to manage the belay.

I think the idea with the fixed belay is that you don't have the pulley effect on the anchor + the belayer doesn't get yanked into the wall with the potential ff2. I haven't used this method so this is conjecture but equalization and mutlidirectionality seem a bit trickier + rope management seems a bit harder. What device/munter do you prefer for direct belay @jselwyn?

Big Redwrote:

Does that solve the problem though? If I'm worried about falling onto the anchor, wouldn't a fixed belay be more painful? And your belayer is still there in your fall zone to manage the belay.

If the climbing is at least slightly sideways off the belay it does. It just doesn't solve the problem of landing on your belayer if the climbing goes straight up.

I've almost never found placing the 1st piece on the next pitch a good solution. I don't want to be leading that hard/tenuous section with a full pitch of rope stretch and drag.

Mikey's suggestion works well for both shitty gear anchors (where I accidentally passed the real belay spot), but also just for the OP's problem. You're pretty committed to belaying the whole pitch from the lower stance which might suck though.

For the "chariot belay" method you can just rap down your long tether. Either with a Munter or with your belay device. You can position yourself on the tether with a Prusik or Micro if you want.

Mikey Schaeferwrote:

What I’ve done when the leader notices that there are gonna be hard moves off the belay anchor or they weren’t able to find a truly bomber anchor is just have the follower(s) stop a couple pieces below the anchor or at the last piece and then put the leader on belay there.  I’ve had to employ this tactic just a couple times, once in Patagonia where the leader was in a wide section and only had one piece that would fit for the anchor, and other time was in the Canadian Rockies where the “anchor” was just a beak and shitty stopper.  It is a good trick to have in your bag but you should probably have a boat load of experience before putting yourself in situations where this technique is the most reasonable solution.

yeah, this is the best method if possible. sometimes you might have to lower down a bit of gear if they don't have the right stuff.  my partner did this once when he had belayed me up a really long pitch, missed the best belay spot, committed to a hard section and got up to a stance he didn't have any gear for, and had his leg jammed down the back of a flake for an anchor. good times!  the key is - don't tell your follower - just act like everything is a-ok.

jselwynwrote:

Fixed Point Lead Belay is my go to is these situations. It's been used in Europe for years, we've been slow to adopt it here. 

To clarify, do you consider it a good idea for trad anchors ?  This thread is under Trad Climbing.

This is a fine technique for trad anchors designed to withstand an upwards / multidirectional pull. 

Never in 20 years have i seen a trad situation where i would want to do a fixed point lead belay.... i would much prefer having a good chariot belay if i get myself in a high chance of ff2, but honestly just plan to build your anchors in better places and that won't happen....

And if its a bolted anchor.... then who the hell bolted that shit anchor with a high potential for a bad FF2 right off the belay ?!

Anyways, i strongly suggest anyone try both methods before having to employ it in real life....

I personally think the fixed point belay is a big pile a ****, very rarely the bolts will be at the right height for a comfortable belay, i swear everytime i see a someone asking to belay him this way its a big shitshow, bad rope management, short roped all the time or way too much slack, really annoying to deal with tangles or knots while belaying with the munter on the bolt... just so many things i cant even explain it all

Chariot belay = very simple, gri gri belay, super soft catch, easy to not get short roped

Just because you haven’t ever seen it doesn’t mean it couldn’t be implemented correctly and done smoothly.

When I use a fixed point lead belay, I usually pull up enough rope to get past the factor 2 situation and into a really good piece or two or a stance. Then have my belayer put the Gri Gri on the rope there with all that slack in the system with a backup knot right behind the Gri Gri. Restack the excess and then put a Munter on the anchor close to my tie in.

I climb, belayed by Munter. Clip the good pieces, get the stance, then have my partner take off the Munter and focus on the Gri Gri belay while I continue.

Actually, just last week I climbed a route with a belay under a low roof. Not wanting my leading partner to potentially break my neck by pulling me into it, I just belayed direct off the anchor for the whole pitch. 

As was mentioned up thread, it’s a technique that has been slow to be adopted in the US.