Why Grivel toe bails are impossible to get off?

I want to switch holes for my g14 toe bails, but I have tried:

Lubed and lined up the oval hole with the flat part.

Girth hitched a sling and then pulled till my hands were bruised. 

The bail still won't move at all.

I have easily changed many Petzl bails with much less effort. What is wrong with grivel bails? What else should I try? Thanks

Not the answer you want, but simply more force is required. 

One idea that may help is to use some kind of progress capture on the back side of the bail. A wedge of some type, so when you pull the bail outward. the wedge can slide in capturing the progress made, till your paws are ready for another go? Know anyone who has wood shims for carpentry stuffs?
A buddy helps as well.
Good luck!!!!!

I have no experience with Grivel bails, but if it were me, I'd try some leverage - get a nice big flat head screwdriver or something in there and crank it.  You'll probably scratch the paint a bit, but I personally wouldn't worry about that.  If you do care about the paint job, maybe protect it with a cloth or some tape?  Maybe someone will come along with a better suggestion.

damn, first experence with grivel pons, will not buy again for this much trouble. Imagine having to do that in the mountains. Grivel's toe bail shape is also very different from petzl and BD, don't know what's the point.

ice trad wrote:

damn, first experence with grivel pons, will not buy again for this much trouble. Imagine having to do that in the mountains. Grivel's toe bail shape is also very different from petzl and BD, don't know what's the point.

FWIW, I suspect that in a pinch you could use the linking bar for some leverage.  Coincidentally, I was looking at the back end of my Petzl linking bars this morning, thinking, "I bet that's shaped that way for a reason" (partly because the front is shaped to use as a wrench on the point attachment bar nuts).  I'm pretty sure the reason is for use in bail removal - and it does work for that, as I discovered in my 15-second FAFO session.

I tried to hang the bail on a pull up bar and clip myself on the bottom of the bail like this, I bounced on it, and the flat part seemed stuck in the hole, and wouldn't go further. I suspect the oval hole is a bit too small. Is this a feature or a defect? If more than body weight can't pull it apart, I doubt any screw driver can pry it open.

Mole grips 

If the flat part, is aligned with the oval... and it still does not come out, try the other side. If that is the case on both, then that leans toward defect. 

I am the owner of many pairs of Grivel crampons - it’s tricky but not that hard. Some leverage is required but as Shaniac says, make sure you’ve got everything lined up properly before pulling.

Just spitballing here but you could also try removing the front point- maybe having that in there is pushing out on the sides of the crampon making it hard to get the bail out? Maybe having more slack in there with the front point out might help? 

My G20s are tight for sure but it is doable.  The holes are an oval so ensure the toe bail is rotated to the correct spot or it won't line up.  Also on mine, 1 side is WAY easier than the other.  I switched to Petzl toe bails on the front and don't have nearly as much trouble.  You can also file down the point once you get it out, to give you more clearance.

Also confirming the bails are tight but should not be as tight as "more than bodyweight." I use a sling, as you mentioned, and gloved hands and I can always get them off. Youve either got something defective or not lined up or wedged weird.

I girth hitch a skinny sling to the toe bail and do it by hand (on the ground, stepping on the body of the crampon with a foot). Alignment is critical, as others have said. But another critical thing is that you want the sling to be as close to the end of the bail as possible. If it's even 1/4 inch away from the bend that goes through the oval hole, you won't get it out.

Try more lube and a slower rhythm.. 

Gunkiemike wrote:

I girth hitch a skinny sling to the toe bail and do it by hand (on the ground, stepping on the body of the crampon with a foot). Alignment is critical, as others have said. But another critical thing is that you want the sling to be as close to the end of the bail as possible. If it's even 1/4 inch away from the bend that goes through the oval hole, you won't get it out.

^^This^^

They are harder to take off than any other crampon I've had. The more pronounced hook-in of the bail ends at the crimps doesn't make it easy to remove. That's why when the sling slips away from the crimp, it levers it the wrong way. 

Channel locks on the inside part have worked well when they don't want to start. Basically anything thick and metal to lever against the flat cut off part of the bail ends.

ice trad wrote:

I tried to hang the bail on a pull up bar and clip myself on the bottom of the bail like this, I bounced on it, and the flat part seemed stuck in the hole, and wouldn't go further. I suspect the oval hole is a bit too small. Is this a feature or a defect? If more than body weight can't pull it apart, I doubt any screw driver can pry it open.

It appears you pulling on BOTH sides of the toe bail. 

Try removing only 1 side at a time.

My G12s had this problem as well. I had to push the toe bail out with a pair of pliers (one jaw pushing on the end of the wire, one jaw on the secondary point). I then filed the hole out a little tiny bit with a round jewler's file. 

I guess Grivel punches the oval hole before making the bends. It seems the hole can then get deformed a bit after stamping in their dies.

Bench vise

Just to reiterate, mole grips can work better than slings as you have a good pulling grip, and control of the orientation. I guess we all find our own way, but they are tricky.

ice trad wrote:

damn, first experence with grivel pons, will not buy again for this much trouble. Imagine having to do that in the mountains. Grivel's toe bail shape is also very different from petzl and BD, don't know what's the point.

Why would you ever change in the mountains?? 

Just pull harder. It’s doable. But if your hands hurt, wear gloves. Hands that hurt can be part of the process. 

I don't get why you folks are trying to get your crampons off...  that's kind of weird kinky shit man...