BD Hydra stock pick durability

Wanted to share my experience with these tools over the last few days. I got a pair of these in the fall and have been looking forward to trying them out. Some context: I'm a decidedly mediocre weekend warrior ice climber, and pretty weak mixed climber. I max out leading WI4+, 5- if something is in hero shape. I swing my tools hard (better climbers would probably say I over-drive my picks) and place too many screws. Ive been climbing on Grivel Tech Machines for 5 years, 3 years on the standard ice picks, and 2 years on the total ice picks and they are in great shape.  I wanted to try something different, so this year I got a pair of Nomics and the Hydras, figuring I would pick the pair I liked best, and sell the other.

So far, this is my experience:

two days of dry-tooling doing laps on M6 with some torque-ing, the hydra picks were in perfect shape, and I barely needed to sharpen them.

The first day on ice, after about 6 pitches of WI3 with the pair of hydras, most of them soloing, and one of the picks looked like this:

I didnt have any idea when it happened. I don't remember ever getting a tool egregiously stuck. I did tap rock twice through some thinner ice, but not hard enough that I would expect something like this.

After that, I did 3 days of WI4/4+ climbing with a frankenstein setup of 1-nomic, 1-hydra, to try to determine which one I liked more. They climb very similarly, and TBH I couldnt really tell a difference. On the 3rd day, it was quite cold and brittle/plating ice, so I was swinging a bit harder and each tool got pretty stuck once. With the hydra, because of what happened to the first tool I tried to clean it very carefully, and spent probably 2 full minutes trying to pull straight up, bump the pommel up, etc with no luck. It does not seem to "rip" free nearly as easily as the Tech Machine. I suspect its because the pick profile stays "short" for longer, and there is less on top of the pick to help pry it out/break through ice on top. It was a fairly steep 4/4+ section, so eventually I did torque it mildly side to side to get it out. Nothing I would consider aggressive, and I have done far more on the grivel Total Ice pick with no effect. Immediately I could tell it was bent. The nomic went through something very similar, and was unchanged. Here's a photo comparing the two from that day:

I'm not trying to claim there is anything wrong with the hydra picks, but there does seem to be much less durability than the grivel Total Ice picks, and seems to be weaker than the Pur-ice pick as well (though I cant say Im conclusive on that yet). 4 ice days, and I've bent both stock picks. I probably need to adjust my swing, but mentally I strongly prefer a well-driven pick. I'm not burying these to the head, but I go until it is firmly in the ice with no wobble. 

In other notes, I do think the hydra is better engineered than the nomic. The pommel adjustment is way more bomber, and I think the pick weight attachment options are superior as well. I may try some aftermarket picks. Curious if anyone else has experienced this.

It's always hard to tell, but I don't think you shouldm be bending these picks climbing pure ice, even if driving them hard into the ice, and leveragingb them sideways a bit to get them out. 

And thus potential problems with the Hydra start to emerge....

I did try a pair a store--they definitely look well made, and I like the "bomberness" of the pommel.  Unfortunately, the shape of the pommel did not feel near as comfortable for my bear paws as the wider pommel on the Nomic, Ergo, and X-Dream.

I bent a Petzl pur ice pick a few years ago in an almost exactly the same way on a similarly mysterious circumstance doing nothing but pure easy ice. I never determined the cause but have never had the same problem either. 

Using hydras this season, I feel the stock picks are of average durability, they will dull when you hit rock but not as much as the soft camp steel. 

Shepido wrote:

Using hydras this season, I feel the stock picks are of average durability, they will dull when you hit rock but not as much as the soft camp steel. 

I agree! I was actually very impressed with how they stood up to two days of dry-tooling and were still pretty sharp. I was really surprised that easy ice seems harder on the picks. 

Sean M wrote:

so eventually I did torque it mildly side to side to get it out. Nothing I would consider aggressive, and I have done far more on the grivel Total Ice pick with no effect. Immediately I could tell it was bent. The nomic went through something very similar, and was unchanged. Here's a photo comparing the two from that day:

 

If those BD ice picks are actually 2.5mm like they advertise (they look noticeably thinner than the Petzl 3mm), then that is likely the difference.

I have bent 2.5mm picks trying to remove them as well (Grivel Razor 2.5mm to be precise). I think in hard enough ice, yes the thinness penetrates well, but if the pick doesn’t remove easily, and you start torquing to remove it, they will bend. Not torquing would be advisable but I also learned this the hard way. It’s easy enough to bend those Petzl pur ice picks at 3mm anyway as well.

2.5mm is unnecessarily thin for most uses in my experience. Pick manufacturers ought to focus on a proper sharpening, taper, and design of the tip, as opposed to focusing on an overall thinness that compromises the integrity of the pick.

Christian Donkey wrote:

If those BD ice picks are actually 2.5mm like they advertise (they look noticeably thinner than the Petzl 3mm), then that is likely the difference.

i took the calipers and measured. The smallest point on the pick I could find was 2.6 mm on hydra, 3.0 mm on petzl. 

I've since had another 2 quite full-on days of hard (for me) ice climbing on the petzl pur-ice picks, where they definitely saw much more rough treatment than the hydras did, and they are still in perfect shape. So at least for me, I'm convinced that the stock picks of the hydra are not well-designed for my style of ice climbing, which I don't think is an uncommon style. 

That is a weird place for the pick to bend with torquing, if driven fully to the head of the tool, since the ice would hold 90% of the pick fixed in place. I would expect it to be bent near the head, not at the tip. If you imagine placing 90% of the pick in a vise, you can see why bending the tip that is in the vise doesn't make sense. Just the last inch or less of the pick would have to be stuck while torquing to get that type of bend. Maybe the ice around the rest of the pick was not that tight or had broken with some initial torquing?

In any case, there are plenty of design reasons the picks would be less resilient to torquing than you're used to. You're coming from a pick that is 3.2mm (from Grivel, not measured) thick and appears slightly shorter than the pur'ice. The Hydra ice pick is even longer than the pur'ice, which creates a longer lever arm, plus the thickness difference. I'd say if you can't tell the difference between the two picks, then there's really no advantage for you to use a thinner pick and the Nomic/pur'ice combo works great. No need to change your removal technique, since there are tools/picks that work with it, but I do find pulling the handle out or bumping it up to work for me even on the most stuck tools.

Another data point: I have ~25 days on ice up to 6+ and mixed up to 10+ on the Hydra ice picks, including required torquing. They're probably another 5-10 days from having to file the first tooth off and retire them to mixed only. I'm seeing similar durability to the pur'ice picks I've used over the last ~6 years. I can tell a small difference in displacement on thin or brittle ice. Not quite a Krukonogi 00, but I've snapped one of those in half... I'd choose not to torque the shit out of the Hydra picks in a tip-deep placement in a horizontal crack, but for ice and alpine mixed I'm quite happy with them.

P.S. Are we related?

Sean McLane wrote:

That is a weird place for the pick to bend with torquing, if driven fully to the head of the tool, since the ice would hold 90% of the pick fixed in place. I would expect it to be bent near the head, not at the tip. If you imagine placing 90% of the pick in a vise, you can see why bending the tip that is in the vise doesn't make sense. Just the last inch or less of the pick would have to be stuck while torquing to get that type of bend. Maybe the ice around the rest of the pick was not that tight or had broken with some initial torquing?

I don't bury my picks all the way to the head, I would imagine most times when it was stuck it was the first 2-3 inches. But I agree, maybe the initial torquing frees up most of the pick, and then only the thinnest remains stuck, which is easier to bend?

Another data point: I have ~25 days on ice up to 6+ and mixed up to 10+ on the Hydra ice picks, including required torquing. They're probably another 5-10 days from having to file the first tooth off and retire them to mixed only. I'm seeing similar durability to the pur'ice picks I've used over the last ~6 years. I can tell a small difference in displacement on thin or brittle ice. Not quite a Krukonogi 00, but I've snapped one of those in half... I'd choose not to torque the shit out of the Hydra picks in a tip-deep placement in a horizontal crack, but for ice and alpine mixed I'm quite happy with them.

That's awesome to hear, it sounds like they really work for a lot of people (especially quite strong climbers like yourself), which means they probably did a good job designing it for that use case. When mixed climbing it I also did some torquing on it with no bad effects, but it was always torques at least a few inches deep. When I demo'd the tools last year it was at a clinic, where they usually dont' let you lead, and on TR I'm definitely less aggressive with my swings. I'm curious as a lot more beginner/intermediate leaders get their hands on it, if there are similar reports, or if I'm an outlier.

P.S. Are we related?

I don't *think* so! My last name is Murray, not McLane, but I'm an Irish/Scottish mutt, so its a non-zero possibility!

Sean M wrote:

I may try some aftermarket picks. 

Check out the Beartooths, you can just bend them back, problem solved!

Pat Marrinan wrote:

Check out the Beartooths, you can just bend them back, problem solved!

Can you elaborate on your experience that led to this suggestion?

I have never climbed on Hydras, but I think it is worth pointing out that most issues with cleaning picks can be resolved by improving the top bevel geometry and/or sharpening the top edge.  Torquing picks to clean them is problematic, as fatigue cracking can occur, even when there is no visually obvious plastic deformation.  

Based on my experience, it is usually worth spending some time and effort to improve the geometry of the top edge / bevel to avoid struggling with cleaning.  Judging by your photos, it appears as if the top edge of the bent pick is rounded and not particularly sharp.  While the top bevel does not appear particularly bad for a factory finish, it looks like there is some potential room for improvement there.  

Hope to see you in the skies soon Sean!