beginner ice lead questions/save me from myself

hi all! planning on knocking this area out next week

 https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106093282/hidden-haven

and seeking wisdom to get me pointed in the right direction. I've done a decent amount of 5.9 trad / passive pro placement.. and then dry tool/ice/mix top rope maybe half a dozen sessions, enough to stab myself in the calf with a petzl dart.

was wondering what a basic ice-specific  starter package would need to be to safely tackle something like this? amount of screws/screw length . I live in SoCal, so hoping to not spend superfluously

is this a suicide mission, or something doable with my alleged background? what's the minimum gear requirement / pro list if unable to find a top rope setup here 

thanks all!!

Assuming this isn't a troll, this is a good place to start: https://willgadd.com/ice-climbing-is-not-rock-climbing/ 

not a troll sir, just trying to make educated decision..wanting to tr but not have a total bust if i get there and there's no TR setup.. if its as simple as a few screws 

If you have ask others for advice on how to lead an ice route…you should not even consider leading it.

hmm yes that and the read the previous gentleman posted definitely makes it seem retarded. point taken.

hopefully I can set up a TR and practice 

really glad i asked thank you

It looks like the FIRST pitch might be suitable for one's first ice lead IF they have several* pitches of following (removing screws etc) under their belt. But a 4 pitch line with funky ice up to grade 4?  Pfft.

* I believe Will Gadd suggests 50 pitches of following before leading. Or maybe it was 100 pitches.

Gunkiemikewrote:

* I believe Will Gadd suggests 50 pitches of following before leading. Or maybe it was 100 pitches.

Mike, I think you're referring to this blog post, where Will refers to 150 30m laps on top rope as being the "bare minimum" before leading ice. Of course, that was written 14 years ago, and perhaps his thinking has changed in that time (as it has on some other topics), but I suspect not.

Edit:  Apologies to Matt, who has already posted that link above (didn't realize until now).

Hidden haven is a multi pitch and I would doubt you can TR it. Desert ice is fickle, do you know that it is actually in right now? Traveling from CA to southern UT assuming ice will be in is a bold move. Go to Ouray you can toprope whatever ice you want, don't need to own a single screw. 

well, ive been drytooling and climbing some random janky 10m alpine ice on toprope in so cal (pic) i travel to utah anyway and was stoked at the potential for real ice, since im already in that area. I posted on Southern Utah forum and that was the only ice that was mentioned.

honestly yeah I would much rather top rope, but if there is like some stupid easy first pitch I was hoping maybe two screws and a YouTube video or something would make it kind of idiot proof. evidently not

jakob millerwrote:

well, ive been drytooling and climbing some random janky 10m alpine ice on toprope in so cal (pic) i travel to utah anyway and was stoked at the potential for real ice, since im already in that area. I posted on Southern Utah forum and that was the only ice that was mentioned.

honestly yeah I would much rather top rope, but if there is like some stupid easy first pitch I was hoping maybe two screws and a YouTube video or something would make it kind of idiot proof. evidently not

With all due respect, if that's you in the pic, your chicken wing stance instantly tells me that you shouldn't be leading any ice yet (at least if you value your ankles at all).  Also, the terms, "YouTube" and "idiot proof" don't belong in the same sentence, in my opinion.  But I hear there are some good "Darwin Awards" channels out there...

Grant Watsonwrote:

With all due respect, if that's you in the pic, your chicken wing stance instantly tells me that you shouldn't be leading any ice yet (at least if you value your ankles at all).  Also, the terms, "YouTube" and "idiot proof" don't belong in the same sentence, in my opinion.  But I hear there are some good "Darwin Awards" channels out there...

lool i value ankles more than respect, no worries

jakob millerwrote:

well, ive been drytooling and climbing some random janky 10m alpine ice on toprope in so cal (pic) i travel to utah anyway and was stoked at the potential for real ice, since im already in that area. I posted on Southern Utah forum and that was the only ice that was mentioned.

honestly yeah I would much rather top rope, but if there is like some stupid easy first pitch I was hoping maybe two screws and a YouTube video or something would make it kind of idiot proof. evidently not

“Alpine ice” and SoCal are a contradiction. Alpine ice (AI) is compressed snow that often lasts year round (think glaciers and permanent ice on summits like Mt Baker or Rainier). Water ice (WI) is whatever you’re on in this pic. :)

That said, your stance alone in this pic is definitely indicative of your skill level. Ice is much less forgiving than rock. I appreciate your stoke though, I hope you can find something in the area that is safe and accessible.

I think part of the reason we have too many ice climbers now is because everyone gets expert professional training and is leading grade 4 by their 2nd season.. maybe if we encouraged folks to go back to the gud old days of fuck around and find out. read a book , learn to tie a knott or two and dive in  we might do a better job of culling herd... 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I think part of the reason we have too many ice climbers now is because everyone gets expert professional training and is leading grade 4 by their 2nd season.. maybe if we encouraged folks to go back to the gud old days of fuck around and find out. read a book , learn to tie a knott or two and dive in  we might do a better job of culling herd... 

This is in poor taste

only if you are not old enough to have climbed on straight shaft tools and have never placed an old Chounard or salewa screw.  That is how many of us learned back in the day. We read books, we dreamed, maybe we had a friend show us some stuff but we did not have access to all the information available now. we went out there and  tried stuff. We played our own game of Fck around and find out. We found out lots of things.  At least in my circle of climbing friends we all lived.. Some of us just barely.. 

Nick if more people did it the way we had to do it this forum would have barely anything to talk about. How could anybody just go out and faf around these days? How would that look on instagram?

Ry Cwrote:

That said, your stance alone in this pic is definitely indicative of your skill level. Ice is much less forgiving than rock. I appreciate your stoke though, I hope you can find something in the area that is safe and accessible.

At least he has his heels down.

To OP - as per the Will Gadd post linked above, Ice is unforgiving. Any fall can be disastrous and there's lot's of other hazards you don't have rock climbing. A 4 pitch climb with the last pitch being WI4 is not a great first lead. Find a local to take you out and follow them. And then do a lot more toproping and following. A lot of leading ice is reading the ice and you only get that from having lots of mileage.

I dunno.   I don’t disagree with any post here and it Sounds like Jacob has his head and ego on straight.   That said, I might be the counterpoint that says “go up and do that first pitch, and decide from there.”   The thing that worries me most in the pic is the field jacket, lol.   That’s awesome campfire attire, but not ideal for multipitch ice….but assuming he did a perusal of Will’s site, Jacob already knows the proper stance and techniques to shoot for by now.  

To Nick’s point, I sure wouldn’t want public pics of my first lead on some 3+ Canadian boilerplate decades ago.  Sometimes you just gotta say “what the fuck” and go learn the hard way.   Way way easier to do that today.   A fist full (7 +\- one or two) 13 cm screws (obviously more is better, but 7 min for a first lead under WI4) will get you up dang near anything if you’re decently fit.  

my advice is to know and closely monitor your “redline” and place a screw well before you reach it.   Your lead redline will come much quicker than a toprope redline.   Don’t be afraid to say fuck it, I’m over my head and back off, sink a screw, and rappel.   Monitor the ice conditions closely and think twice before heading into sketchy ice terrain that might not give you a warm fuzzy screw placement.  If ice is good, with modern gear, I’d test my limits using good objective decision making (despite deciding to lead ice in the first place, lol) and adjust accordingly.  Otherwise good luck!   I admire the stoke.  

thanks, 

• yeah I don't think I was climbing like that, despite that being the focus here lol. I just found a good foot placement and hung out hands free while my belayer Mmo'd me and took a photo for Instagram. granted, im sure my technique is suboptimal, overall. 
• i did read the article! I've also read any article I could find and watched hours of youtube instructional videos leading up to this point.i understand I don't know much about ice, which is why im asking. i just thought maybe if i couldnt set up TR, using rock lead/trad experience (and YouTube/Instagram knowledge) doing the first pitch or two and rapping on a tree was feasible. but was aware maybe I'm mistaken, hence post!
• the field jacket was situationally appropriate :D

Nick Goldsmith 

theres a reason they call you guys "the greatest generation" ! ;)

I am not that old.. that was my dads generation.. 

jakob millerwrote:

• i did read the article! I've also read any article I could find and watched hours of youtube instructional videos leading up to this point.i understand I don't know much about ice, which is why im asking. i just thought maybe if i couldnt set up TR, using rock lead/trad experience (and YouTube/Instagram knowledge) doing the first pitch or two and rapping on a tree was feasible. but was aware maybe I'm mistaken, hence post!

Yep.  Not sure you’re mistaken.   The obvious no brainer default move is to wait and get more experience.  Never a bad move.  But Only you can judge your readiness.  Keep your head and constantly assess.  Take appropriate action if the dials are indicating “things are on the edge”

I’d at least work out the details of racking and removing screws quickly and efficiently and a glove system that allows you to do that and clip quickly as well.   You don’t want to get Elvis leg and fumble fingers 20 feet above your last screw placed in aerated ice cuz you pushed it too far past redline and are wearing fatties good to 20 below.  Little details make a difference here .

Disclaimer: My lawyer advises me to warn you that my advice is shit, and whatever you decide, “yer gonna die”.