New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #33

Thinking about this route yesterday, it’s an f’ing shame if the limiting factor is bleeding fingertips.   How do you toughen up your skin in time for the next try?  Every route has its own problems to solve. Maybe one needs more tricep strength. Another you have to surrender the calves because it’s just so sustained. I’m totally committed to strength training now and to continue working on endurance to go a little further on my journey. But that’s just one part of the story in outdoor climbing. 

I’m also still thinking about a beautiful new route I’m working on and trying to recall from memory exactly what technique muscles need the tuneup. I think I will have to make a bridge.

This is SUCH a great sport.  

Carl. Thanks for the advice. Sounds great! Have you noticed it’s been a long time since you posted any depressing poetry here?  Maybe you could write some new death poetry with a catchy title like Do Not Go Gentle…   

fossil wrote:

Thanks for getting back to me on this Emil.
Bachar's regime would kill me, and I suspect if he were still around he would have backed off by now and be playing more my sorta game. That link I shared that's a young person's game, but what I think is still valid as an old person that the best weight training for being a climber is to swing your weight around in a way that resembles or is actually climbing, and then people think I'm silly.

This is an old people's thread on a climbing website and if we look at the title, the only qualification that I do not meet is the "new" part. I've been trying to nudge my way in, and even though I'm no John Gill or Rich Goldstone or even a Russ Walling (probably closer to a Russ but better mannered, less recognizable) I know where a lot of the bodies are buried and with the right crowd maybe my tongue is a bit loose. We will see how it works out.

No one should care if you’re famous or not, the problem is if any advice or opinions you relate can lead someone to injuries or not.

Training is the most controlled manner to progress. “Just climb a lot” injures people. It’s that simple.

Yes, you can overtrain as well, but if you know how to train properly and don’t constantly push your limits injuries are less likely.

If you’re say a V4 climber then you make multiple attempts on a V5, you’re making the exact same movements over again at your limit. It’s those repeated movements at your limits that lead to injuries.

You can argue that you try one V5 then other V5 with alternative movements, but then why not simply train? Training will build strength and flexibility more methodically than randomly selecting V5 climbs you think are different enough to help train your body.

The main difference between a famous climber and yourself Is that any opinions they give is more “solid” simply because they’d quickly become infamous and notorious cause if they gave bad advice it’d reach a wider audience more quickly along with any backlash. Thus, the smarter ones tend to give better advice.

I tend to rely upon logic and progression not being famous nor infamous myself and I don’t have any academic credentials either. But I know many climbers who’ve injured themselves, and observed how and why after seeing it repeatedly.

Bad advice is bad no matter who gives it.

I think there is a definition problem here. People have different 'goals' , and what they consider to be 'training' would very much be a factor of what their goals are. And defining training as having an, at least somewhat organized 'program' towards obtaining a specific goal, within that definition there is a vast amount of room for variation. As stated earlier, training to climb 14,000' peaks is VERY different from training to climb 5.14!!!!

You Li, are training to do harder routes/problems, but others on here may be training more for stamina to do longer routes or bigger mountain days or, maybe, just do more routes a session in the gym or at their local crag. Their training would be very different from yours---all valid.

And, one can as easily injure themselves over training as over-climbing. I'm guessing that injury is more likely, in either circumstance, during difficultly training compared to stamina training.

I'd agree with Alan here. How you train is determined by what you want to accomplish.  Personnally, I have injured myself worse and more often when training and very few times while climbing.  Also, I think putting on muscle to climb is often counter to gaining ground.  Thin and whip cord strong is what gets you up harder grades, certainly not bulky muscles.  And for climbing, as I have said before, you will most likely gain far more doing long endurance burns that by anything else.  Especially if you want to climb well outside, which requires somewhat different strengths and skills than gym climbing does, and these two sports are moving further and further apart as gym routes continue to evolve.

It’s true that physiology makes a huge difference. Some folks struggle to gain muscle mass while others struggle to lose weight.

If I were smarter, I should probably power lift like my little sister, but climbing has always been fun for me being the “lean one” of my family.

Agreed, anyone can overdo anything, even training.

I’ve just seen more people injured only climbing, and it bugs me that they still think that cause some of the best climbers in the gym claim that’s the way up to higher numbers.

It’s like what was stated in that stretching video posted above. The worst possible person to teach you how to stretch is someone who’s super flexible.

Okay, look, in almost ANY new endeavor, step one is simple:

Put pants on, show up.

The start has lots of learning, but also low hanging fruit.

Out of shape, especially if you were never in shape?

Just....start.

Anything.

Including merely walking from the far off corner of the Costco parking lot, or, seeing what this climbing thing is some friend does.

Like a 58 year going out with a 37 years younger person to try out rock climbing. Outside. Cuz that's her SAR kid, learning this new thing and mom is willing.

Now?

Well. Still not in anything like in shape.....but still better off than my demographic in general, so yeah, I feel like there's still some small glimmer of hope to actually try to get ripped.....

Or at least not have parts actually falling off when I walk across the room.

 

Damn. Hot damn.   

Edit to reply to Bob's pic below. Ditto the hot damn, lol!

But in fairness to me, I'm very visual, and a sometime artist.....so, these bodies are just stunningly beautiful. Make me hope I have the lifetime left to get my drawing skills back up to speed, then get after life drawing again. That's the V12 of art, people.

Climbers, in particular, have beautiful backs/shoulders/arms. Even the ropy, beat up, hands are really visually interesting.

Two of the Stonemasters: John Bachar (top). John Long (bottom). 

Bachar did a lot of bouldering, weighted pullups, his Bachar ladder, etc. and Long did a lot of bouldering and pumping iron!

Okay, pic for fossil, me, terrified following the 2nd pitch traverse. My FIRST multipitch, first time to Smith, second time climbing there, still a pretty brand new climber. First weekend in October, below freezing at night, nonetheless, Smith was a packed wall to wall madhouse of people. Partner and I literally hiked in starlight to be first in line. By the time we got there? A long line behind us....but we were first. 

Not a huge fan of Smith, but Terrebone is nifty. If you've been there all along, you maybe have some stories pertinent to early years of sport climbing?

My crag of choice is COR, so if you ever head that way, maybe we'll cross paths. 

:-)

Old Lady H said:

"...step one is simple:

Put pants on, show up."

Todd B. said:

"...the most effective form of stretching [or any exercise] is the one that person will consistently do."

Sounds about right to me.

Ok, before I get my britches in a lather. I play with that word “old“ but only to humor. I don’t like any of the words ascribed to us.— not Senior, Elderly, I don’t even like Master.  I especially don’t like Duffer.  But it’s what we’ve got and comes with a ton of garbage.  Peel off the labels and what you’ve got is a group of fine athletes.

There is no one here who needs to be schooled.  

But we are a different breed of trailblazers who put our combined wisdom and self-understanding to the game of climbing.  Nothing “less than” about this group. 

Alan Rubin wrote:

I think there is a definition problem here. People have different 'goals' , and what they consider to be 'training' would very much be a factor if what their goals are. Andefen defining training as having an, at least somewhat organized 'program' towards obtaining a specific goal, within that definition there is a vast amount of room for variation. As stated earlier, training to climb 14,000' peaks is VERY different from training to climb 5.14!!!!

You Li, are training to do harder routes/problems, but others on here may be training more for stamina to do longer routes or bigger mountain days or, maybe, just do more routes a session in the gym or at their local crag. Their training would be very different from yours---all valid.

A good point Alan and I'll add that IMO training just to maximize climbing performance (no matter what type of climbing you're interested in) isn't what the AARP set should focus on. At this point in our lives none of us are going to make a living because of how hard we climb. So yeah I train to improve my climbing I also train to try to stay healthy, mobile and active as long as possible. And I'm not suggesting what works for me will be ideal for everyone but I think weight lifting can useful for a lot of people. 

Climbing wise I was never a phenom. Lots of people climbed harder than me when I was younger. I'm starting to be a bit of an outlier wrt longevity though as there don't seem to be a lot of mid 60ish types bouldering harder than V5 and most of them climbed way harder when they were younger. I didn't but I just haven't lost as much over the years and I think consistent weight training is one of the reasons why.

Todd, I assume you're talking about a different Wendy.   

I feel that you are very unlikely to get injured climbing if you simply climb for fun and you can get on the rock or ice 3 or more times a week. you will also get pretty solid on that more than 3 days a week schedule.  The problem arises for those of us who cant climb 3 to 5 days a week. Some low impact training is going to help us.  High impact , over achiever training is going to provide us with more injuries.  It almost always does. There are very few people who train hard in any sport I have ever dabbled in who are not constantly dealing with a training injury. 

Sort of related to this topic of training… there was a recent thread about how to become a better climber and I found it interesting that most of the replies had to do with how to push the numbers. That is, better=higher grades.
For me, becoming a “better climber” can include various elements, climbing harder grades being perhaps the least important. We can become better climbers by…

Learning and practicing self-rescue techniques.

Getting at least a basic first aid certification.

Expanding our knowledge base about anchors, protection systems, knots, etc. 

Staying up with current trends in gear, belay methods, anchor systems.

Putting into practice social skills that make you a good partner.  

Learning to be really happy those times when you feel “flow” as you climb (John Gill concept) even if you are climbing well below your max grade. Enjoy the movement and especially movement that is smoothly and efficiently executed.

Maybe folks could add to the list.

Anyway, just some thoughts to justify why I can’t climb the high grades a lot of you can!  ; )

Great points Daniel!

In 2021 I coauthored a book called Rock Climbing: The Art of Safe Ascent that discusses many of those topics.

Here's an excerpt apropos for us older trad climbers:

"Acceptable risks are based on our judgements. In trad climbing we must correctly judge the soundness of the rock and our protection. We must have a solid grasp about how hard we can climb without falling when the protection problem is real. Success often depends more on a strong mind than strong fingers. Topos rate each pitch, valuable data for sure. But we still have to decide: Do we go or not, which is the moment of truth that keeps many climbers on short, bolt-protected sport routes. For others, those who seek a giant step into the unknown with no guarantees, the freedom to choose electrifies their lives, knowing that the hazards are always there. Mastery in this regard is less about huge numbers than about staying within ourselves. Managing the protection problem was best summarized by Socrates, 2,500 years before technical climbing was ever invented: Know thyself.

We still talk about Icarus, but he died."

I think that Steve Bechtel’s (Trainer and author of the book Logical Progression) definition of “training” makes sense for climbers.  “Training” is all the things that you do to help your climbing that do not require rock shoes (stretching, hangboarding, weight lifting).

 “Practice” is everything that you do with rock shoes on.  He recommends that “training” should never take up more than 25% of your climbing-related time (excluding maybe recovery from an injury), since the skill component in climbing is so high.  

I am very lucky in that I almost never get injured climbing.  I do want to add antagonistic (push) muscle training because your brain apparently limits your strength in the pull muscles if muscle imbalance is too great.  I’m starting with finger extensions to see if that helps my finger strength.

Ward Smith wrote:

I am very lucky in that I almost never get injured climbing.  I do want to add antagonistic (push) muscle training because your brain apparently limits your strength in the pull muscles if muscle imbalance is too great.  I’m starting with finger extensions to see if that helps my finger strength.

In any sport resistance to injury is an under appreciated talent. 

My version of being a better climber almost always means achieving flow. When you achieve flow the grades go up naturally. The only way for me to achieve flow is to get lots of climbing days. Some training obviously helps but the climbing days are the real progression prescription.  The times I have been lucky enough to go on extended climbing road trips I have usually achieved flow by the end of the 2nd week... by the sixth week or so of doing nothing but climbing, hiking , reading, playing guitar and resting flow is perfectly natural and a state of being that could never be achieved by training 4 days a week and climbing only one day a week. 

Li Hu wrote:

I’ve just seen more people injured only climbing, and it bugs me that they still think that cause some of the best climbers in the gym claim that’s the way up to higher numbers.

Perhaps the problem with this "discussion" lies in the definition of "only climbing."  Personally, I do not consider climbing in the gym (which I regularly do twice a week), as "climbing" for the purpose of using only climbing as a training method. Moves on plastic can tend to force unnatural movement and focus stress on distinct parts of the body -- which can be a recipe for injury. In my case, all of the injuries I have suffered "climbing" have been in the gym.

Climbing a lot of routes outdoors can be a very effective way of training for climbing, but supplementing some weight training and stretching is necessary to fully round yourself out physically. 

As an "older" climber (over 70), while concerned about climbing reasonably well when climbing outside (and traveling to new climbing areas), I am more concerned with staying healthy overall and trying to ensure that my older years won't be terribly compromised.

Many studies have shown that your VO2 Max (Cardiorespiratory fitness, as measured by maximal oxygen uptake) is not only a key predictor of longevity but for quality of life. Maintaining muscle strength has also been shown to be an important factor in quality of life (mobility) and longevity - but muscle strength does not directly correlate with muscle mass. Keeping your "core" strong -- in my experience -- super important.

Both of these capacities generally degrade as we age, but the decline can be lessened through exercise (and for many people who have not been active, gains can be made).

Cycling is an excellent means of maintaining or building VO2 Max capacity, and is low impact (as long as you stay upright), which is important to us older individuals. Climbing, core work, and some weight training focused on parts of your body that may not be as strong as others is important, but you do not need to be lifting anything "heavy" to accomplish this.

As Alan and Jan stated, training and maintaining are individualistic endeavors - it all depends on your goals and your own background and physiology.