What constitutes an actual "Ice Route" or "Ice Climb"?

For an upcoming regional guidebook & to clean up some areas on Mt. Project...seeking a general consensus on what parameters (ie. height/length) qualify a chunk of ice as an actual "ice climb" or "route" vs. what I suppose is ice "bouldering" or such. Yes road cuts and creek walks with some steps can be fun, but what makes them a route? Multiple steps? Road cuts over 30'? etc. A lot of really short flows called climbs in most areas (Mountain West, Midwest, East Coast etc.) 

So...is it 30' as a minimum? Must take a screw for pro that will hold with rope stretch if not soloing? 

Some exhibits... 

1) Probably 30' of WI2 Slab...great beginner area

2) Desert ice mini pillar - highball ice bouldering? 

3) 20' foot flow/curtain in a cool amphitheater

4) Roughly 25' with a similar pitch above

5) Two twenty footers with a sit start...bahaaa! 

6) Non-worthy road cut ice...but have seen incredible ones! 

I’d say a climb starts around 30' and requires more than a few moves, along with gear like screws for protection. If it's less than that and more playful, it’s probably more like bouldering. Anything above 30' and needing rope/protection feels like a route.

"Anything that someone thinks is worth recording. If I do a 10-foot line and record it, put it on MTP, and annoy everyone on Facebook, lol, then in my mind, it counts as a route. Also if the 2-foot-tall boulder is considered a route, why not the 2-foot-tall ice climb?

Btw wheres that 2nd pillar it actually looks like fun.

If its ice and you climbed it, its an a actual ice route, whether you bother with a name, or not.

With all due respect, Jim (and I really mean that!), this question sounds like something that would come up in a bouldering thread or a grade-chasing thread ("is my send "valid" if I wore green socks in my climbing shoes?").  Which is to say, who cares?

Climb what you like to climb.  If you want to share the fun with others, or make the venue/location/feature known to others to enjoy, great!  Just say what it is, and provide pics if you have them - like you did here.  Then the rest of us can make an informed decision about whether it might be worth our time and effort.  Beyond that, what does it matter?

Grant Watson wrote:

With all due respect, Jim (and I really mean that!), this question sounds like something that would come up in a bouldering thread or a grade-chasing thread ("is my send "valid" if I wore green socks in my climbing shoes?").  Which is to say, who cares?

Climb what you like to climb. If you want to share the fun with others, or make the venue/location/feature known to others to enjoy, great!  Just say what it is, and provide pics if you have them - like you did here.  Then the rest of us can make an informed decision about whether it might be worth our time and effort.  Beyond that, what does it matter?

Totally agree and share your sentiments Grant, just a Mt. Project Admin for some ice areas that should probably be cleared/cleaned up and working with an author of a new guidebook. Thus, just trying to get a sense and/or figure out what to put in and not put in. Not grade chasing or looking for some validation (most pics ain't my routes). Enjoy creek walking and canyon exploring with my cattle dogs as much as any FA. 

Jim Clarke wrote:

Totally agree and share your sentiments Grant, just a Mt. Project Admin for some ice areas that should probably be cleared up and working with the author of a new guidebook. Thus, just trying to get a sense and/or figure out what to put in and not put in. Not grade chasing or looking for some validation (most pics ain't my routes)...could actually care less if this thread goes anywhere. Enjoy creek walking and canyon exploring with my cattle dogs as much as any FA. 

That makes sense.  I wasn't suggesting that you were worried about chasing grades or anything like that (that would be out of line with your other posts I've seen).

Returning to your question with that context... that's a tough one.  I think it comes down to a variety of factors.  For me, the question is whether it's something you would drive from home or hike the approach for. There are lots of little side trickles beside "real" routes that can be a fun end to the day.  Those would probably get a footnote mention in a guidebook, but you wouldn't go there if the main route wasn't there.  I'm sure there are possible exceptions, but that probably implies at least a 30' minimum for most climbers.  Probably not much help, but hey - my brain is fried after a long week!

Enjoy the polar air leak this weekend, everyone!

How about this on Oak Ceeek, Red Rock, NV, does this count?

Dave Schultz wrote:

How about this on Oak Ceeek, Red Rock, NV, does this count?

1000%! Any and All ice in Red Rock counts! Love that place. Heard there is a climbable pitch or two on rare occasions there. Icebox or another canyon, can't recall. 

Grant Watson wrote:

For me, the question is whether it's something you would drive from home or hike the approach for. 

Yeah, that's what it comes down to for me as well. If there is a 20' road cut that's easy to access and put a TR on then that is probably worth including for beginners and folks wanting some easy mileage. If a similar flow was 10 miles in the back country then nobody cares, climbers will only make the trek if they think there is a significant prize to be had. It's less about whether it's a route, and more about if it's worth it.

I'm stoked to see this guidebook!!! what region is it for?

I don't think length is the only factor in whether it deserves a place in the guidebook. Does anyone care about this piece of ice besides the person who spotted it, or would they care if they knew about it? A guidebook is immediately worth the price if it alerts me to the existence of a route that I then actually go and climb. Could this piece of ice serve a useful purpose for anyone, even if it's a niche purpose like introducing a beginner to ice for the first time?

Good stuff here, thanks. Ellen, some routes potentially in two guidebooks (one national, one mountain west) and some editing of routes on Mt. Project. Agree with the "drive and approach for" parameter.