How to place screws when your tools have a leash

Ok, I apologize Mark. I can't say I know,  but the hexentric thing has long been a thought of mine. The advancement in Yosemite (and nearby) (and not so nearby) free climbing from 1971 to 1976-8 is almost equal to the total advancement worldwide since. Two full number grades. Yes there are caveats, but those facts remain. 

As for ice climbing tools, I experienced the earlier advancements. I have enough experience that I can readily see advantages of today's tools, but have not yet had the pleasure. And won't this season,  but I really look forward to it. What I can't imagine is them living up to what is claimed by you and all the rest who are using them. So I am eager to have the experience. 

What gets my dander up is when an OP asks a specific question,  to which I give an honest answer that is backed up by real experience,  then others indicate I am wrong, while not answering the presented question. 

After giving leashless tools a test drive,  maybe I'll agree.......greatest technology advance in all of climbing in 50 or whatever years? I just can't grasp that. Significant maybe yes.

There's a reasonable argument for ice screws, leashless tools, etc as the biggest technological improvement in ice climbing, but I'd go further back and argue that the front point is the single most important piece of technology for modern ice climbing.

I suspect perhaps you have never placed a 22cm Chounard screw in sub zero ice...

You're right, Nick. I started with BD express screws and straight shafted BD Shrike tools. My first leashless tools were the first Reactors and my ability and confidence soared. I always looked at climbing ice as soloing anyway, so perhaps that's where my bias came from? When I got those Reactors, I was confident enough that I soloed some 5's but never felt solid enough with leashes to do so.

And Eric, I was the first one to answer the OP's question. I gave him an in depth explanation of exactly how I recollect placing screws. I never said anything disagreeing with your answer to his question. I addressed your thoughts on hexentrics. I'm really confused what you're on about at this point, especially since you haven't climbed on leashless tools to actually understand the point I was making, but post limits are going to keep me from being able to reply again today.

Matt Z may have a point about front points though. 

ALL the modern stuff of today is amazing compared to 30 years ago, but if forced to climb on late 80’s/early 90’s gear, I’d rather use old boots and crampons before old axes.  

You can pry my 1st gen Nomics from my cold dead hands! 

This is starting to remind me of a mountain bike thread that asked what the greatest advancement/ innovation was in the sport. I’d say tires and brakes, but that kinda happened in conjunction with better frame geometry, improved materials, manufacturing techniques, dropper posts, drivetrain tech, and so on. Gear evolution happens in fits and starts, and often concurrently. I’d say the leashless revolution was a quantum leap, but remember it happened hand in hand with high clearance shafts and MUCH better, (offset and “pinky rest”) handles. Ice screw evolution was no less impressive, but it seems like the timeline was longer. Obviously age and climbing career factors in; I’m sure tubular screws blew people’s minds!  And none of this would be possible without reverse- curve dropped picks and front points. Anyhoo, my point is that none of this happens in a vacuum and it’s a fun discussion. Like Mark said, just when I think the gear can’t possibly get any better, it does! 

Nate, if you started on BD express screws you started on modern screws so I can absolutely see how you would think it was the tools..  Back in the 80s the tools sucked but I could still follow 5+ even though I never lead anything  harder than 4+ back then and that only rarely.  More often soloed 3s and 4s and occasionally led a 4.  Hardest lead I ever did back then Was Shaker heights which was a 4 in the book then but now its a 5 ;)  My point being that even though the tools sucked compared to nomics etc they were light years ahead of the screws.  Hummingbirds and Simond Chakals actually climbed pretty good. The screws were horrendous. Just placing one screw in bulletproof ice could completely pump you out. They were dull as a plate of piss and long as a sermon.   My rack was 8 screws back then. Now I take 12 cragging and 16 @ The Lake   To place just one of these bad boys on steep bullet proof ice was the equivalent pump of climbing a whole pitch on TR or solo..   You started by either slipping your arm farther through your leash to hang from your elbow sort of  freeing up your left hand. get screw off rack and into left hand, use your hammer to pound the screw part way in which is the Only way to get the threads to start to grab.   Then stick the pick of your tool through the eye of the screw and twist with all your strength.  In cold dry ice they would actually squeak or more accurately screech in that tortured metal sound.  this could take up to 10 min. On dead vert pillars  I would clip my tool and hang direct while placing the screw but  I still got super pumped .  Just placing one or two screws was enough to make the pump factor on a steep pillar ridiculous..    Simply knowing you have a modern screw on your harness that you can place one handed  anytime, anyplace in a few seconds changes everything. Add modern leashless tools and the sky is the limit. Except for that pesky father time thing.... 

I doubt anyone on this thread started without front points so that conversation should be off the table. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

They were dull as a plate of piss and long as a sermon.  

Ha, love it Nick!  I must’ve started just before Nate C, when “speed” knobs began appearing on Omega Pacific screws and BD Turbos were about to become Turbo Express. Thanks for describing what the older screws were like. Incredible. 

Bale wrote:

Ha, love it Nick!  I must’ve started just before Nate C, when “speed” knobs began appearing on Omega Pacific screws and BD Turbos were about to become Turbo Express. Thanks for describing what the older screws were like. Incredible. 

Was it the turbo or the express that look just like the current BD screws without the knob?

Whichever it was, mine didn’t have speed knobs so had that bit of the miserable experience. I definitely wouldn’t have stuck with it the way Nick did with the screws he had. 

I started with Chouinard Zeroes and North Wall hammers, and now climb with Nomics.  I was a late adopter to leashless (2010?) and climbed my hardest stuff (5+) with leashes.  BD Lockdown leash on the left, and BD Twister leash on the right.  I placed the majority of screws on the right, and I was locked in with the left up high, and getting in and out of the twist leash was simple.  The Lockdown was easy to get out of for placing to the left.  That's with BD Express screws.  The old Chouinard and Salewa screws were another matter, as Nick describes.  My old two-toothed Salewa screw is mushroomed over from pounding--saved it for secure belay stances, as there'd be no way to get it in on lead. For me, tools (Pulsars, Rages, Cobras, to Nomics) and crampons (strap on SMC hinged, rigid, Chouinard rigid, Footfangs (mono!), on through several BD and CM/Petzls) were a gradual progression, whereas the advent of one handed screws were a game changer.  Gone were the third tool (C Alpine hammer, Forrest Mjollnir), the cow's tail and fifi, and the dreaded pump placing bad screws.  With a little training and good screws, zippering up vertical virgin ice walls was no big deal.  It felt like I had finally mastered the combat roll in kayaking.  With a good roll/zippering you can climb/paddle anything!  Alas, age has set in and I don't climb that hard anymore.  But I still have fun with the new doodads.

NateC wrote:

Was it the turbo or the express that look just like the current BD screws without the knob?

Whichever it was, mine didn’t have speed knobs so had that bit of the miserable experience. I definitely wouldn’t have stuck with it the way Nick did with the screws he had. 

IIRC, they were just “Turbo”, and had a dark steel hanger, (not stainless), with only one hole and no knob.
Yeah, Nick is a tough SOB!

My first experience with modern screws was the smilieys in the late 90's . No twisty handle but one handed amazement regardless. 

 This is the best use ever of a Chouinard/ Salewa screw.. 

The biner was my bottle opener. Must have been Christmas time  as there's egg nogg in the fridge

My first trip up Pinnacle gully with borrowed tools, boots and crampons. Nice close up of the Simond Chakal which was the best tool of the era INMOP

a shot of me leading with all my own gear. One screw per pitch was the rule unless there was a good stance before a crux. 

My friend Judd with Chakals demonstrating the one screw per pitch rule

me on the FA of Beer or a Beer I had one or two snargs at this point . They also sucked. If they went in easy they probably fell out as you climbed past them. If the ice was hard sometimes you had to swing the hammer with both hands to get them all the way in.

my best ever snarg placement on FA of Beer or a Beer

topping out on a grade 4 pillar with one screw

if you're using leashes , my $0.02 is to make custom leashes out of 1" webbing. I thought these were always better than stock leashes.  rotate the hand to get in and out of them, very secure when tight . they also don't get stuck on , like the stock leashes would.  don't recall anyone really placing a screw (not referring to pound in) with hand in a leash. 

Being a full time southerner and weekend warrior, i have historically lagged behind with the ice gear. I ice climbed for more than 15 years before i bought a pair of matching axes at the same time. 

My experience with screws is quite different than Nicks. By my second season(83-84) i had made a socket for Chouinard screws from a spark plug socket. I always used a pick placement or a starter hole to hand start the screw. Then the ratchet could crank the srcew in relatively quickly in the hardest ice. I lead many WI 5s (and a few 6s) in new england, Quebec and the Canadian Rockies using Chouinard screws. You did have to have a bit more endurance to do that, but... Would I go back to Chounards screws now? Hell no. I also wouldnt wear plastic boots or 8 pound per pair One sport boots again. 

When first gen Cobras came out i thought I had bought my last pair of tools lol. 

All the gear advances make ice climbing more fun.

The 3 screws on the left in Nick's picture here are 1st generation Chouinard screws. These were a definite improvement over the Salewa tubular screws. Chouinard also sold a ratchet for use with these. I had the whole set up. I don't see any pictures here of the circa 1990 Chouinard/BD stainless steel screws, but carefully sharpened they worked very good. I could either make a starter hole, or just push against the ice and twist. Once started, clip a biner on, stick your finger in the biner and twirl/twist 'em in. Worked even at 20 below on New England ice. IIRC!

Edit: I think the 2 screws on the right are the 1990's Black Diamond  SS ones, mentioned above. 

Thanks for your post Timothy.

 Maybe placing 80's/90's screws off of the tools of the day vs today's gear is kinda like hexes vs cams. Cams are easier,  but if you are good with hexes,  you can get the job done without too much stress. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I had that ratchet. Didn't work for me... It needed a extended handle for more leverage.. 

I imagine that the ice you were climbing in NE back in the days of those screws had the consistency of concrete or granite before things warmed up as much as they have. Did that play a part in not being able to get enough leverage? 

Oh I kind of agree, Nick. Those 1st generation Chouinard screws were an improvement over Salewa,  but still a pain. I can't say for sure how much I used the ratchet, but I had one. On alpine north faces using the axe like a brace was ok, but that doesn't work out on Grade 3 plus WI. The SS Black Diamond screws with your finger in the biner, that worked nice.

The Salewas, if you wanted to reuse them in sub freezing temperatures, sometimes had to be carried under your shell jacket to melt the ice out, so you could then screw them in!

I you think those first generation Chounard screw worked well you just might be senile or perhaps you were a good alpine climber (verry selective memory required) 

Eric Craig wrote:

Oh I kind of agree, Nick. Those 1st generation Chouinard screws were an improvement over Salewa,  but still a pain. .....

I am confused about which part isn't clear.

Edit: I like that about selective memory prerequisite for alpine climbing. I might suffer from that. Maybe.

Well, with the 1st gen Chouinard's, at least you didn't (normally) have to put them inside your coat to clear the ice out of them. 

someone up thread said that the Chounard screws worked quite good, then they went off about Canadian rockys which made me think they might be a good alpine climber with the  pre exquisite selective memory required to be a good alpine climber..... 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

someone up thread said that the Chounard screws worked quite good, then they went off about Canadian rockys which made me think they might be a good alpine climber with the  pre exquisite selective memory required to be a good alpine climber..... 

No Nick just a motivated weekend warrior. Chouinard made 2 versions of their ratchet. The first gen had a shollow socket and big ratchet teeth. I much prefered my home made tool. The second version came out right away with a deeper socket and finer ratchet. Made it worth the weight reduction. I used them well into the 90s. Untill i owned better ones i didnt care about it. I made them work.  I could never stay home when it was a 30 below morning cause i had driven or flown too far. 

I very quickly abandonned the placement method you discribed. 

I also hated the effort required to place Snargs on steep climbs.