Petzl Ice Tool Failures (Current Generation Quark, Nomic, and Ergonomic)

Christian Donkey wrote:

What are you too good for this kind of stuff or something?

I'd like to think I am, but no, probably not.  My point is that I don’t buy a string trimmer and then complain and gasp when it doesn't do what a riding mower does.

Mark Pilate wrote:

 

This year I’m not bitching about anything (yet).  At least there’s ice to climb.

Not on this side of the country.  Grrr...

Any time I play a game that the only thing between life and death is a tool I would appreciate if that tool is over engineered. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Any time I play a game that the only thing between life and death is a tool I would appreciate if that tool is over engineered. 

I get it, Nick.  That makes sense.  But, understand that that's your game that you choose to play.  It's not the game most of us play, and not what most ice tools are designed for.  As Christian pointed out a page back, there are tools more suitable than the (Ergo)Nomic for your version of the game.  That doesn't mean the Petzl tools are unsafe for their intended use.

Grant Watson wrote:

That doesn't mean the Petzl tools are unsafe for their intended use.

I disagree. The pommel is a minor issue compared to how they have broken at the handle. A handle spontaneously snapping documented in many instances here is extremely problematic and unsafe.

At least we basically know the pommel’s limitation, especially if we go by the 1.5kN MBS (arguably stronger in the L position).

I don’t think we’ve clarified the problem or know the limits of the handle yet. Lateral loading issues or fatigue issues seem to be the working theories so far. But these are extremely hard things to account for in intended use case scenarios, especially the harder you push the tools…

Christian Donkey wrote:

I disagree. The pommel is a minor issue compared to how they have broken at the handle. A handle spontaneously snapping documented in many instances here is extremely problematic and unsafe.

At least we basically know the pommel’s limitation, especially if we go by the 1.5kN MBS (arguably stronger in the L position).

I don’t think we’ve clarified the problem or know the limits of the handle yet. Lateral loading issues or fatigue issues seem to be the working theories so far. But these are extremely hard things to account for in intended use case scenarios, especially the harder you push the tools…

I agree that the consistency of the location of the breaks we've seen suggests that there's an issue, and we're finally starting to get a few details about the circumstances of the breaks (thanks to Greg Barrett).  I just think the rhetoric has been overblown in this thread, with people basically saying, "these things are going to kill me."  Yeah, a break would be bad.  You could get hurt.  If you're a soloist, ygd.  But I haven't seen anything that persuades me that the tools are inherently unfit for the intended purpose.  That said, I would love to see Petzl address this issue.

Grant Watson wrote:

I get it, Nick.  That makes sense.  But, understand that that's your game that you choose to play.  It's not the game most of us play, and not what most ice tools are designed for.  As Christian pointed out a page back, ther are tools more suitable than the (Ergo)Nomic for your version of the game.  That doesn't mean the Petzl tools are unsafe for their intended use.

Huh? No one whether they are soloing or not is agreeing to play the game of spontaneous handle disconnecting!

The intended use of the tool is absolutely for it to NOT break while climbing, regardless of whether or not your soloing.

a handle breaking is a serious problem in any climbing situation, i don’t understand the logic here? 

A tool that breaks is absolutely unsafe for its intended use!

Now…how likely it is for that to happen is a separate discussion, and you can absolutely make the argument that it is very unlikely for you to experience the same failure with your Nomics. 

 Ice climbing the leader should not fall and the tool should not break.

ryan Smith wrote:

a handle breaking is a serious problem in any climbing situation, i don’t understand the logic here? 

A tool that breaks is absolutely unsafe for its intended use!

Now…how likely it is for that to happen is a separate discussion, and you can absolutely make the argument that it is very unlikely for you to experience the same failure with your Nomics. 

You seem to be making an absolute assertion on the one hand, then equivocating with the more realistic acknowledgment that the likelihood of failure matters when deciding whether to use a piece of gear.  Literally every piece of gear has at least one failure mode.  If you haven't broken it yet, you just haven't pulled hard enough (see howNOT2).

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

 Ice climbing the leader should not fall and the tool should not break.

Agreed.  And yet, leaders do fall, and tools do break.  Govern yourself accordingly.

Edited to get around post limits:

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I do my part to not fall and the tool needs to hold up it's end of the bargin. There is not an ice climber alive who has not taken a vigorous swing  over a bulge and solidly whacked the handle. These things need to not break in those circumstances yet one of the breaks was exactly that

And there's the problem!  There is no bargain.  You're trying to impose a bargain on an unwilling counterparty!  Petzl has not, and will not guarantee that its tools will not break under any circumstances.  I suggest you end the negotiations, and try to find a willing party who will offer the guarantee of perfection that you seek.

I do my part to not fall and the tool needs to hold up it's end of the bargin. There is not an ice climber alive who has not taken a vigorous swing  over a bulge and solidly whacked the handle. These things need to not break in those circumstances yet one of the breaks was exactly that. 

NateC wrote:

Not really. There are currently 3 documented instances. All by people who climb more and harder than the vast majority of users with the same tools. 

Your concern (and others for that matter) seems over the top to me.

If this was happening regularly, to regular climbers, it would be all over these message boards. Especially with the number of tools out there.

Hell, the Ouray ice fest was last week! We would have heard of one breaking there given that there were like 10k people gathered there and likely 5000 sets of nomics and ergos.  But there hasn’t been a report of it happening.

Your need for concern on this infinitely approaches zero. 

Almost a year ago I made this post. Some additional instances have popped up, but everything else I said in this post still feels true to me. The failures are happening to people who climb very difficult mixed and dry terrain on them and often in ways that were beyond the vision of the engineers designing them. I don't believe there's a need to be phobic about these tools.

With that said, it's also been a year. Petzl has had time to address things internally. With the Hydra out, and Camp coming forward with an improved Xdream soon, I would expect to see Petzl come forward with a design that can handle the edge case user's demands in the near future. 

Equipment has always been the limiting factor in climbing. Equipment has to evolve for the sport to evolve. The highest level climbers can't push the limits if they are holding back due to not wanting to suffer the consequences of a tool failure. 

Grant Watson wrote:

You seem to be making an absolute assertion on the one hand, then equivocating with the more realistic acknowledgment that the likelihood of failure matters when deciding whether to use a piece of gear.  Literally every piece of gear has at least one failure mode.  If you haven't broken it yet, you just haven't pulled hard enough (see howNOT2).

Yes, everything dose have a failure mode. The failure mode is not supposed to happen from climbing on the tool. Is that not how these failures have happened? They have all broke while people were climbing on them? If the tool breaks because people take factor 2 falls on them that would be less concerning. Then again you would expect the adjustable pommel to go first, not the entire handle.

If you view your tool as life saving equipment i think edge case failures, however rare, are still concerning.

An unexpected failure more has been identified, it has happened under conditions where one would not expect the tool to fail, the manner in which and location they have failed is pretty consistent.

The failures are very rare statistically, but that doesn’t change that fact that it could have serious consequences. 

Just a few days ago I witnessed a petzl carbon tool snap right in the bend of the shaft. The person was climbing a mixed route just out of sight but I could see their belayer. I heard a loud crack and saw their belayer get yanked. I ran over initially thinking it might have been the sound of an ice screw snapping out but they were totally fine thank goodness. 

I went back a few pages to see if the person involved posted themselves but didnt see it. 

It was alarming to say the least and has me wondering about the suitability of carbon fiber in an application where its fairly likely to suffer impacts with both blunt and sharp forces. 

Larry Morgan wrote:

Just a few days ago I witnessed a petzl carbon tool snap right in the bend of the shaft. The person was climbing a mixed route just out of sight but I could see their belayer. I heard a loud crack and saw their belayer get yanked. I ran over initially thinking it might have been the sound of an ice screw snapping out but they were totally fine thank goodness. 

I went back a few pages to see if the person involved posted themselves but didnt see it. 

It was alarming to say the least and has me wondering about the suitability of carbon fiber in an application where its fairly likely to suffer impacts with both blunt and sharp forces. 

A Petzl CARBON tool? 

NateC wrote:

A Petzl CARBON tool? 

Sorry, a petzl tool with what appeared to be a carbon fiber shaft. I incorrectly identified the brand when I asked what happened and was told by the climber it was Petzl.

Edit: I'm realizing it may not have actually been carbon fiber. Regardless it seems the OP is looking more for a trend with handles breaking which this was not, so my anecdote is probably not reqlly helpful to include. 

Larry Morgan wrote:

Just a few days ago I witnessed a petzl carbon tool snap right in the bend of the shaft…..

New Prototype?  Or mis-ID.    Unaware of a Petzl carbon tool.

Haven’t climbed on em much last few years as they are mostly my loaners, but I have 4 prs of different vintage BD carbon fiber tools from the first Black Prophets thru the Cobra evolutions.  Still looking bomber after ~25 years.  Last dozen or so with beginners banging and torquing the shit out of them. No worries about durability as far as I’m concerned 

Mark Pilate wrote:

New Prototype?  Or mis-ID.    Unaware of a Petzl carbon tool.

Haven’t climbed on em much last few years as they are mostly my loaners, but I have 4 prs of different vintage BD carbon fiber tools from the first Black Prophets thru the Cobra evolutions.  Still looking bomber after ~25 years.  Last dozen or so with beginners banging and torquing the shit out of them. No worries about durability as far as I’m concerned 

Yeah, I think probably mis-ID on my part. I was certainly told petzl, but not knowing the petzl line and a bad assumption on my part had me believing it was carbon fiber. Regardless this failure doesn't really contribute to the potential trend the OP was thinking .

NateC wrote:

With that said, it's also been a year. Petzl has had time to address things internally. With the Hydra out, and Camp coming forward with an improved Xdream soon, I would expect to see Petzl come forward with a design that can handle the edge case user's demands in the near future. 

Any info on these new X-Dreams?

Cole Crawford wrote:

Any info on these new X-Dreams?

I've seen them in various social media posts but I have no actual information. It appears that the grip has changed a fair amount, but how substantial that is to the performance is hard to guess. 

Cole Crawford wrote:

Any info on these new X-Dreams?