Looking for a "Trad gear needed on bolted route" route

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111735132/trad-gear-needed-on-bolted-routes

I don't have trad gear yet. I think it could be a good way to try it out, on an easyish route. Get or borrow the 1 or 2 pieces needed and try it. Anything in new jack? Would Unknown Crack work? 

I'm sure joshua tree has a many, but those are all Scary.

Is your goal to try out placing trad gear for the first time? Or to feel like you did a trad climb while reducing risk to as close to zero as possible? Are you interested in learning trad?

I'm not judging either way, just trying to clarify what the goal is. (I'm a socal trad climber who has also done plenty of sport climbing out here, including at NJC)

When trad gear is needed on a route with bolts one is placing gear or (not and) clipping bolts. That is it is rarely the case that there is trad gear near the bolts. If you want to learn to place gear what many do is to first learn to build a trad anchor, then pseudo lead placing gear. That is place gear while on TR.

Borrowing one of two pieces is not going to accomplish much because trad routes take gear different sizes. So as said above what is your goal?

> Is your goal to try out placing trad gear for the first time 

yeah

> Or to feel like you did a trad climb while reducing risk to as close to zero as possible?

no

> Are you interested in learning trad?

yeah

See the that thread. I know it's not common but it does exist. 

I know I've seen in route comments and descriptions on sport climbs "it felt runout past the third bolt but there was as place to put a #2 so I did"

I've seen that thread, and you should not do any climbs that require trad gear whatsoever until you have some real experience placing gear and leading on gear. I say that for your safety. It's not that hard to learn trad climbing, but the consequences of getting in over your head are very serious. It's worth learning properly, and safely. If you do a mixed climb that requires placing gear to protect a runout and you don't know how to place gear well, pardon my language here but you may be royally fucked. 

I'd highly recommend taking an intro to trad class. Even a single day or weekend class would give you a decent taste for it and allow you to practice placing gear while you're safe on the ground, and under the guidance of somebody who knows what they're doing. That's how I started years ago and would recommend that intro to anybody interested. Sure, you could learn totally on your own but like I said, the consequences of getting it wrong can get very serious very quickly. If you let us know where you're located, I/others would be happy to help with more specific recommendations

Edit: you mentioned NJC and Jtree so I'll assumed you're in socal. Vertical Adventures in Jtree does an intermediate climbing course (1 day) that includes an intro to gear anchors

https://www.verticaladventures.com/our-courses

Their two day anchoring course is specifically aimed at those looking to learn trad climbing

https://www.verticaladventures.com/multi-day-courses#block-5e988bf6d8e293d99783

You can also check out International Alpine Guides up in Mammoth, they do a basic trad climbing course as well (two days)

https://www.internationalalpineguides.com/rock-course-mammoth-lakes

Corpse Wall in the Santa Monica Mountains has a bunch of routes that take gear between bolts. For example this one.

Bring more than one or two pieces if you plan to experiment and actually learn how to place gear.  

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/105813783

kinda sorta

Placing gear in run out “sport”/mixed routes is a great option to have.  I strongly recommend following someone qualified (that you trust your life to) on moderate terrain and then sewing up some dead simple leads before getting on something more committed.  

Cosmic Hotdog wrote:

I've seen that thread, and you should not do any climbs that require trad gear whatsoever until you have some real experience placing gear and leading on gear. 

I'm curious about this post. I'm sure it's well intentioned. But how does one get "Real experience placing gear and leading on gear" without doing "any climbs that require trad gear whatsoever?"

Seems contradictory. All of us, at some point, had our first trad lead. 

Andrew Rice wrote:

I'm curious about this post. I'm sure it's well intentioned. But how does one get "Real experience placing gear and leading on gear" without doing "any climbs that require trad gear whatsoever?"

Seems contradictory. All of us, at some point, had our first trad lead. 

Well intentioned for sure. Let me clarify. Real experience placing gear on the ground under the instruction of someone experienced who can demo how and what a good placement is. And not leading on gear before that experience is had first. 

Someone who has no experience placing pieces and having an understanding of what good placements look and feel like, might be asking for a trouble by getting on the sharp end, winging it, and hoping for the best. 

Depending on the area, there are often sport routes with closely spaced bolts that will take gear here and there. It's a nice, safe way to test placements. Find out what works and what doesn't.

I agree that doing a mixed trad/sport route with a couple of placements isn't a great way to learn how to place gear. As others have pointed out:

1) It's dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. Those routes are generally designed to use gear where gear is possible and to have bolts only where there is no good place for gear. That means it can be a long runout between bolts, and not having reliable placements would be like skipping bolts - sometimes multiple bolts in a row. 

2) A big part of trad leading is being able to visually assess a potential placement and quickly match it to the right piece from your rack. Carrying just a couple of pieces that you've heard are needed on the climb does little to advance this crucial skill. Sticking a #2 into a pre-identified spot 50 feet off the ground is not a very efficient or safe way to learn.

Better ways to start learning trad are

1) Ground school, i.e. placing gear and testing your placements while your feet are on the ground. It's very helpful but not strictly necessary to have supervision of an experienced friend or instructor/guide.

2) Follow an experienced trad leader. When you follow, if you have time and a patient leader, try removing each piece and then placing it again yourself so that you get a feel for how and why the leader matched that piece of gear to that opportunity in the rock. Also, look around and see if there are other spots you might have placed gear, and maybe try using the pieces you have collected so far to make (and remove) new placements.

3) Mock lead on TR. I've done this with friends on single pitch trad routes with fixed anchors. Even if you can't get to the anchor from above, an experienced friend can lead the route on gear, lower down, and belay you on a couple of laps while you first clean the gear, and then go up again on TR placing your own gear.

4) Lead dead easy stuff like Andy H said. Something you'd feel comfortable soloing, because that's basically what you're doing when you're on lead and you don't know if your placements will hold a fall.

OP, you probably already know this, but if you do decide to go ahead with mixed trad/sport routes, you'll want to start way below your onsight grade. Holding on while you futz around with trad gear takes more endurance than clipping bolts. As they say, push your grade or push your gear, but not both at the same time. 

Garry Reiss wrote:

Depending on the area, there are often sport routes with closely spaced bolts that will take gear here and there. It's a nice, safe way to test placements. Find out what works and what doesn't.

This is true, but it's important for the OP to know that these generally are not routes that are identified as mixed in guidebooks or on MP. Routes that are intentionally developed as mixed usually follow the ethic of "thou shalt not bolt next to cracks". This results significant runouts between bolts that would be unacceptable on a pure sport route. 

L Kap wrote:

Holding on while you futz around with trad gear takes more endurance than clipping bolts. As they say, push your grade or push your gear, but not both at the same time. 

This is a great point too.  It’s amazing how much energy you can blow on a finicky placement in what should have been easy terrain. 

Cosmic Hotdog wrote:

Well intentioned for sure. Let me clarify. Real experience placing gear on the ground under the instruction of someone experienced who can demo how and what a good placement is. And not leading on gear before that experience is had first. 

Someone who has no experience placing pieces and having an understanding of what good placements look and feel like, might be asking for a trouble by getting on the sharp end, winging it, and hoping for the best. 

Thanks for clarifying your advice. I think it's good. I really learned how to place gear by following more experienced leaders and paying a lot of attention to how they placed gear. And, yep, some practice with my feet squarely on the ground helped too. 

Andrew Rice wrote:

Thanks for clarifying your advice. I think it's good. I really learned how to place gear by following more experienced leaders and paying a lot of attention to how they placed gear. And, yep, some practice with my feet squarely on the ground helped too. 

For sure, thanks for being civil and giving me the benefit of the doubt. That's a great option too, probably the best really. I didn't have anybody to follow when I started so I took multiple courses and had to become the experienced leader myself. But if I'd had somebody that would have been ideal

Andrew Rice wrote:

I'm curious about this post. I'm sure it's well intentioned. But how does one get "Real experience placing gear and leading on gear" without doing "any climbs that require trad gear whatsoever?"

Seems contradictory. All of us, at some point, had our first trad lead. 

place gear at ground level. clip in direct and try to rip your gear (ideally with a crash pad or some backup). you'll quickly learn what holds and what doesn't.  Also just follow and clean on trad routes, but i know mentorship isn't accessible to everyone.

I appreciate the safety talk. 

Any other local route ideas?

Andrew Rice wrote:

Corpse Wall in the Santa Monica Mountains has a bunch of routes that take gear between bolts. For example this one.

Bring more than one or two pieces if you plan to experiment and actually learn how to place gear.  

This is where I did my first leads, highly recommend! 

Mx Amie wrote:

place gear at ground level. clip in direct and try to rip your gear (ideally with a crash pad or some backup). you'll quickly learn what holds and what doesn't.  Also just follow and clean on trad routes, but i know mentorship isn't accessible to everyone.

What holds from you yanking on it is very different from what will hold in a fall. If gear is ripping out with a tug it for sure isn't going to catch your whip. 

Lots of great advice here, so no need to pile on.

One very minor point about placing cams that seems to be easily and commonly missed by the newer leader: if you can’t quite get the cam into an ideal placement, try flipping it around. Sometimes this little (seemingly obvious but oft forgotten) trick can work magic. Check it out whilst on the ground practicing your placements.