Using aid ladders for jugging, hw do people safety these?

I'm practicing with some aid ladders and wondered if others are simply putting a caribiner up where they clip to the rope as a way to insure the rope can't come out of that track where the cam is that locks them out?  It was suggested to me to put back up knots in the rope and clip to belay loop as another form of back up of the asenders come offf the rope.  Wondered what others are doing?  Getting ready for a winter attempt on the Nose.

Thanks,

Max

Another option is a Microtraxion on the belay loop — your chances of both jumars coming off and the Micro failing are close enough to zero that it counts.

Don't value my input too highly as I'm not a very experienced wall climber, and there's no shortage of those on this site so prioritize their feedback. 

What I do is if it's a free hanging line I will put the safety biner on the top jumar, and if I'm cleaning a pitch then do the bottom one. This is because you often remove the top jumar when cleaning and adding an extra step to remove the top jumar blows. 

The method you described as a backup works well. A lot of kids these days leave the rope free hanging with no knots in it and put a grigri on it as a backup. People seem to have strong preferences for one or the other, to the point that I've heard very experienced wall climbers say that their way is the only way and everyone else are being dumb and making life harder on themselves. They both seem to work to me. 

Appreciate that,

I'm leaning towards using a micro traxion on a quickdraw to allow the rope to feed and have a back up device to catch me if either ascender were to come off.  Seems like a Gri gri might not feed as well?  

Cheers,

Max

A Grigri feeds just fine if there's enough weight of rope hanging below it to draw it through. 

The grigri has to be manually fed for 25-40' depending on the rope and the grigri, after that it auto feeds from the weight of the rope. Sometimes you want to pay out rope, hence a grigri is sometimes more convenient than a trax. I tried out a trax and hated it, but that wasn't extended. Your extended idea may have merit, I dunno, I would say try it out before you get on the wall. 

I don't use the top hole on the ascenders at all. Micro trax on the belay loop is a great backup to your ascenders. 

Microtrax if you're not having to clean anything or it's straight up and don't need your grigri (though there is a way to lower with a microtrax), with a grigri if you have to clean, preordered this AC sulu and it'll replace the grigri and the microtrax. 

If it's steep I'll use a frog technique with one ascendor, 2 ladders, and a microtrax held up with a neck lanyard, this works really well. 

I'm possibly misunderstanding here but why not just put an overhand on a bight and clip it to a large locker on your belay loop every 15-20 ft? This results in a stack of knots/loops on one carabiner in exactly the order you need to feed them out later when belaying. The microtrax will work as a backup, but then you still have to manage the massive loop you're making below you as you get higher and higher. Sectioning off parts of rope and clipping in to them with a locker won't catch you as quickly if your ascenders pop off the rope (which they almost certainly won't on The Nose as none of the jugging is that tricky), but the benefit is that the rope is 1. Not in a giant 75ft loop below you that's gonna be hung up on things and 2. Is already stacked and ready to go when you get to the belay. The ideal is something like: leader fixes the lead line after pulling up some/all remaining rope, and the second releases the bag then sets to work cleaning the pitch while the leader hauls. Hauling should take less time than cleaning so once the bag is docked the leader starts leading the next pitch self belayed on a gri gri (this sounds a sketch coming from the free climbing world, but on relatively straightforward aid where you clip bomber piece after bomber piece, it feels very safe). When the second arrives at the belay, the leader is already out of the way and the second puts the leader on a normal belay. When the belayer needs more rope, they simply grab the top knot, untie it, and you've got another 20ft section of rope ready to go. Repeat until the leader reaches the next belay. 

Dave Alie wrote:

I'm possibly misunderstanding here but why not just put an overhand on a bight and clip it to a large locker on your belay loop every 15-20 ft? This results in a stack of knots/loops on one carabiner in exactly the order you need to feed them out later when belaying. The microtrax will work as a backup, but then you still have to manage the massive loop you're making below you as you get higher and higher. Sectioning off parts of rope and clipping in to them with a locker won't catch you as quickly if your ascenders pop off the rope (which they almost certainly won't on The Nose as none of the jugging is that tricky), but the benefit is that the rope is 1. Not in a giant 75ft loop below you that's gonna be hung up on things and 2. Is already stacked and ready to go when you get to the belay. The ideal is something like: leader fixes the lead line after pulling up some/all remaining rope, and the second releases the bag then sets to work cleaning the pitch while the leader hauls. Hauling should take less time than cleaning so once the bag is docked the leader starts leading the next pitch self belayed on a gri gri (this sounds a sketch coming from the free climbing world, but on relatively straightforward aid where you clip bomber piece after bomber piece, it feels very safe). When the second arrives at the belay, the leader is already out of the way and the second puts the leader on a normal belay. When the belayer needs more rope, they simply grab the top knot, untie it, and you've got another 20ft section of rope ready to go. Repeat until the leader reaches the next belay. 

If you're using a backup like a microtrax or a grigri you untie from the rope and leave it hanging below you with no knots. 

Both systems have pros and cons and they seem similar to me in terms of time and efficiency, but I'm also a wall gumby and don't pretend to be very knowledgeable here. But I see very accomplished wall climbers using both systems and a lot of accomplished wall climbers being incredulous at the one they don't like. I've used both and they both work. 

That makes sense; I don't doubt that system works I guess I just don't see the advantage. But I'm in a same boat as Ricky: I've done a small handful of walls and am neither an expert nor very up on the current wall climbing zeitgeist. 

My thoughts are that in such a system you have to pull up the rope at the end and recoil it so that you can spool it out once you get your leader on belay in such a way that it doesn't become a total cluster at the belay.  So I'd bet the time eaten up by that vs looping bights of rope during the pitch-cleaning process is probably roughly comparable. Additionally, while there's nothing strictly dangerous about untying and getting into the rope repeatedly on a route so long as you do it correctly each time, that seems like an obvious vector for accidents that I would personally avoid unless the time or energy savings were fairly large.

Happy to get schooled here though! I'd like to do at least one more wall in my life and I'm not against updating my protocol

The only point I have to add other than the consensus of using a trax backup is to always consider what you are jugging and how different devices will react in a shock load; Ex.: Rejugging a pitch you just zippered on a hard aid climb. Although the piece of gear you are jugging on just held a fall it's still one piece that's probably not super awesome and the action of jugging could make it rip. In this case, I switch to a grigri with a 2:1 system where the main device isn't toothed. Then in the case the piece fails introducing a drop of who knows how far producing a shock load, you are far far less likely to desheath your rope.

I don't pull up and coil the rope each pitch. When belaying, I use my micro attached to the anchor to create a cache loop for my grigri. This way I only pull up the amount of rope necessary for the pitch being climbed and I instantly have weight on my jugging line. 

This means if the climb is 3000', I only pull up 3000' of rope, not pitch count x rope length. I also rarely have to feather my lower ascender to move it. 

@Adam, this sounds interesting but I can’t visualize it. Can you throw a pic or sketch up on here to help me wrap my non-engineering brain around this?

Adam Fleming wrote:

I don't pull up and coil the rope each pitch. When belaying, I use my micro attached to the anchor to create a cache loop for my grigri. This way I only pull up the amount of rope necessary for the pitch being climbed and I instantly have weight on my jugging line. 

This means if the climb is 3000', I only pull up 3000' of rope, not pitch count x rope length. I also rarely have to feather my lower ascender to move it. 

You beautiful bastard. Amazing. 

Question regarding the second part. When are you juggling where you can keep the microtrax on the anchor? 

Thanks all! 

I'm choosing to use the Micro traxion on a qd on my belay loop due to the simplicity (as a back up) and ease of not having to tie knots.  THe less I have to deal with tieing safety the better.  Appreciate all the ideas and feedback.  

McKinley Thompson wrote:

Thanks all! 

I'm choosing to use the Micro traxion on a qd on my belay loop due to the simplicity (as a back up) and ease of not having to tie knots.  THe less I have to deal with tieing safety the better.  Appreciate all the ideas and feedback.  

What's the point of the qd? I just put the micro on my belay loop. Seems like the extra fall length would be unwanted. 

Ricky Harline wrote:

You beautiful bastard. Amazing. 

Question regarding the second part. When are you juggling where you can keep the microtrax on the anchor? 

Oh, that wasn't clear. The micro has to come off your belay loop to set up the cache loop and off the anchor to backup your jugging. The teeth face different ways, so you'll need to flip it for each application. 

Clayton Crowhurst wrote:

@Adam, this sounds interesting but I can’t visualize it. Can you throw a pic or sketch up on here to help me wrap my non-engineering brain around this?

https://www.freesnakeclimbing.com/advanced-climbing-systems/big-wall-freesnake-systems

https://www.freesnakeclimbing.com/advanced-climbing-systems/freesnake-fix-and-follow

Simple, simple, simple.

Put a nice big auto locker on your belay loop and tie a knot into it every 15, 20, 30, 50 feet as per your comfort level.

And remind me again, how many accidents are there where both ascenders have "popped off" the rope?

I'm in the tie a back up knot every so often camp (enough to keep you from hitting a ledge if you fall). The only time I put a biner in the top hole is on the bottom ascender when cleaning the Great Roof.