Joining two ropes with a lashing for a rappel

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Alternative products from established manufacturers (Mountain Tools Web-O-Lette, Bluewater Titan Rabbit Runner, Yates Rabbit Runner) are all rated to 13 kN or more as single strand, they will pass the UIAA 22 kN minimum strength when clipped into a loop, and they are sewn in a controlled manner that ensures you aren't likely to get a bad unit.  And, they are 1/3-1/2 the price.  The lack of sewing seems irrelevant on rabbit runners, since there is a bulky loop at the end anyway, and the stitching can't migrate down into the masterpoint because it's clipped.

https://www.mtntools.com/cat/mt/web/mt_webolette.htm

https://www.bluewaterropes.com/product/13mm-titan-anchor-slings-rabbit-runners

https://www.yatesgear.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1022

Caveat emptor, etc.

Sooo, the idea itself isn't bad, you just don't think there's an improvement with spliced rope over webbing?  All the load-bearing fibers of that webbing are exposed to sun and chafe, where mine are protected from both.  I have similar size ranges, and offer custom sizing if I'm simply emailed about it.  Is the cost really the only objection?  I wish I could make them at a scale that brought the cost down, but until the technology gathers some traction and gets over this hump of suspicion of new things that is promoted here in MP, it might take a while.

For the person who asked: (Guy? sorry, I can't scroll up to see other replies): my gear is Zartman Rigging.  My webstore, for now, resides on my website/blog, www.zartmancruising.com

My UIAA certs are under Abednego Marine, the official business name under which Zartman Rigging is a brand.  I know it's complicated, but eventually I'll have everything more streamlined.  You have to start with what you have, and making, designing, and testing products is more importatnt than a dedicated website right now.

For the sarcastic responder who thinks the only advantage is that they're lighter, I'm happy to say you're wrong.  They're also more brightly colored! But seriously: they're more durable, and every bit as flexible and versatile as sewn runners, with less bulkiness.

The rope connection technique shown here seems a little crazy to me, as do 60 dollar slings.. That being said, I have contemplated a spliced loop in the end of a rappel/light hauling line (5mm Marlow R8 to be specific). My reasoning is that it would be low profile to clip to a carabiner in a carabiner block/reepshnur setup, make a tidy loop to clip packs to for hauling, as well as a slick attachment to a beal escaper with a girth hitch. 

All this is to say, I don't think this is 100% crazy.. I think many commenters are missing the fact that this is all contingent on static ropes with a braided dyneema core, e.g. not something you would be tying into on a regular basis, if ever, and certainly nothing you would lead climb on. As far as the half hitch (or whatever it is) connection, it seems quite inelegant relative to your other products. How about a soft shackle, or some sort of a toggle? 

Although I appreciate your out-of-the-box, adventurous concept....I am happy with knot or carabiner blocks or double ropes knotted together.  Call me old fashioned but sewn ends skeev me out.  Best of luck to you though.  Maybe send it to Ryan Jenks and get him to break test it?

I would also be interested in seeing a HowNot2 vid of this tech. Maybe the use cases would be more apparent if we saw some testing and explanation on video.

As for use cases, my big concern would be cut resistance. 

For big walls, you mentioned rappelling, I believe.   So I put your two eye spliced ropes in the bottom of my haul bag, haul them to the top, and then use them to rap. But then, I'm carrying 2 ropes all the way to the top for the fairly marginal benefit of snag resistance on the way down. Extra weight and volume concerns warn against this. 

I could haul on one of your lines - the spliced eye would be nifty for clipping the haul bag into - but then I'm still carrying one rope all the way to the top just to rappel with - but maybe I'll use it for some fixing on the way up? However, I'd be concerned about rope diameter - both my jumar and my protrax are only rated down to 8mm, while you say your ropes are 6mm. Also, I would feel a lot more comfortable jugging and hauling on a thicker line, in case I miss an edge that I should put a rope protector on for my jug line, or my haul bag rolls and sends the rope over a sharp flake. I will admit ignorance here - maybe more practiced wall climbers or riggers can comment on the effectiveness of using 6mm dyneema in common PCDs. And maybe dyneema in the construction you use has better cut resistance than standard nylon? But without these assurances, I would be quite wary.

I've only done a little caving, so I can't say I really know the ins and outs. But I know that cavers almost always enter and exit via the same route. So they fix their line, rap it, do whatever they are doing down in the mucky darkness, then ascend out. Often, they will just leave the rap line in place for decades. The big thing cavers care about when picking ropes is abrasion resistance - how well will it handle being soaked in mud and jugged on for decades, and how well would it handle being dragged across a sharp limestone edge if some part of the system directing the rope fails? A secondary consideration is how well you can control your descent when the rope is covered in mud. This is probably why every caving rope I've ever seen is, like, 11mm. I could imagine a really high end first descent team exploring a multi day cave wanting lighter, more compact, skinnier ropes - but even then, they will leave their lines fixed as they go. So if your use case is pulling double rope raps, the nature of cave exploration precludes it.

Canyoneering has similar issues. Canyoneers do pull their ropes and carry them through the canyon, and so have a preference for lighter, skinnier ropes. They care a lot about abrasion resistance, but less about cut resistance, as there are few sharp edges in canyons. Canyons are formed by running water, which tends to round off sharp edges. It has already been mentioned that canyoners typically rap off the ends of their ropes, though I don't think this is a dealbreaker for your ropes, as canyoners tend to use modified figure 8 rappel devices where spliced rope could (presumably) pass through easily. The problem you'll have marketing your product to canyoneers is that canyoneers don't do double rope raps. Well, okay, sometimes they do, but they are never planning to rely solely on double rope raps. Their default is rapping a single strand with a block. This has advantages for canyoners in flowing water canyons, as it allows them to adjust rope length as the first person goes down to get the rope end *just* above the water, as well as providing the option to lower someone from above if they are incapacitated on rappel by the flowing water. For canyoneers in dry canyons, they may use different rappelling setups depending on the situation. A double rope rap is an option - but they will want to save time by feeding out only enough rope to reach the ground, then tossing the rope bag, saving themselves the trouble of packing up the excess rope when they are done. More experienced teams will fiddlestick their rappels. The first person in the party needs only to tie the rope end into a block with the fiddle stick, then toss the rope bag. A pull cord can be set up at the party's leisure. Then all faffing with the rappel can happen after the rappel is complete, when others are moving down canyon, rather than faffery happening at the top when the whole party is waiting on you. And fiddlesticking comes with *another* advantage, which is that the difficulty in retrieving canyoneering ropes is typically overcoming friction from the rope running over rounded edges, which is caused by the weight of the rope that must be pulled *up* to get through the mallion. With a fiddlestick, you need only pull hard enough to pop the fiddlestick, and the whole system comes down. Concerns about, say, a biner block getting chocked during a pull, aren't really warranted. The flowing water that forms the canyons typically precludes the sort of cracks where gear or knots could get wedged. So I think it would be a hard sell for canyoners and canyoneers as well.

That said, I'd be interested in hearing about the edge cases where this solution might be useful.

Gavin, Norm, and Brice: thanks for the thoughtful replies.  This is good discourse. Norm: the ends are not sewn: they're spliced.  It's the strongest, lowest-profile method of putting an eye into a rope.

Gavin:  The picture is a hastily constructed idea to see whether people would be "skeeved," as Norm put it, by such a concept.  It's actually a structure as strong as the lines it's joining: we engineer lashings like that every day. I also have a toggle joiner in the works, but it would be more susceptible of catching on a pulled rappel rope.  My vision for a haul line is one with Technora in the cover, to make it more heat and abrasion resistant.  I'm working with Marlow, incidentally, to design a line of static ropes, both in 6 and 8mm, with Dyneema core and technora/poly blend cover specificically for use as haul/tag/rappel lines.  Because there are few rappel or ascending devices designed for rope as skinny as 6mm, I'm also designing hardware suited to that rope size, so that it's all a system that works well together.  It just takes time, but eventually I hope to mainstrean super strong, super light, durable ropes and hard gear for them.  For cavers, I'd recommend the 8mm line; for canyoneering, the 6mm, with the Ti rappel plate I'm currently developing for the size.

If this happens (it's very expensive to develop all this, so it takes time), I should be able to supply lengths of line up to about 700 meters, spliced or un-spliced, so both cavers and canyoners can have length options that suit their fancy.

I have spoken to Ryan Jenks, but since he's running a retail store, he's unwilling to make a video of gear he isn't willing to sell, especially since it's better than anything he's currently offering.

Ben, I have a request. Would you be willing to make and post a video of yourself setting this up? Doing so at a mock anchor station would be ideal if you’ve got access to one, though not strictly necessary. Please start with two of your spliced eye ropes separated, and demonstrate the process of connecting those two ropes via your dyneema lashing.

I think seeing this in action may serve to help us understand what we, collectively, seem to be missing. Conversely, it may cement for us why we prefer the current norms.

Thank you for your consideration. 

Rapping and/or ascending a 6mm cord?
No, thank you. 

Ben Zartman wrote:

Gavin, Norm, and Brice: thanks for the thoughtful replies.  This is good discourse. Norm: the ends are not sewn: they're spliced.  It's the strongest, lowest-profile method of putting an eye into a rope.

Gavin:  The picture is a hastily constructed idea to see whether people would be "skeeved," as Norm put it, by such a concept.  It's actually a structure as strong as the lines it's joining: we engineer lashings like that every day. I also have a toggle joiner in the works, but it would be more susceptible of catching on a pulled rappel rope.  My vision for a haul line is one with Technora in the cover, to make it more heat and abrasion resistant.  I'm working with Marlow, incidentally, to design a line of static ropes, both in 6 and 8mm, with Dyneema core and technora/poly blend cover specificically for use as haul/tag/rappel lines.  Because there are few rappel or ascending devices designed for rope as skinny as 6mm, I'm also designing hardware suited to that rope size, so that it's all a system that works well together.  It just takes time, but eventually I hope to mainstrean super strong, super light, durable ropes and hard gear for them.  For cavers, I'd recommend the 8mm line; for canyoneering, the 6mm, with the Ti rappel plate I'm currently developing for the size.

If this happens (it's very expensive to develop all this, so it takes time), I should be able to supply lengths of line up to about 700 meters, spliced or un-spliced, so both cavers and canyoners can have length options that suit their fancy.

I have spoken to Ryan Jenks, but since he's running a retail store, he's unwilling to make a video of gear he isn't willing to sell, especially since it's better than anything he's currently offering.

Thanks for the reply, Ben. It seems like the Marlow Excel R8 line is similar to what you are talking about developing, although not available in 6mm as far as I know. I've been using the 5mm variety for various skiing related tasks (mostly rappels over steep snow/ice) with good success, and have been curious about what an EN564 certification would entail. Seems like you have the ball rolling on this. It seems like skiers are broadly a good demographic for this sort of innovation - the combo of low abrasion environment (snow), a need/desire for lightweight, and an established culture of utilizing thin, static ropes will lead to more openness to the nuance of these ideas rather than general skepticism for the use case of 6mm static ropes. 

this is good motivation to revisit learning to splice a sheathed rope. As far as hardware, I've had good luck with the mago 8, old petzl reversino, and new edelrid nanojul for rappel devices, and the nano traxion or spoc work well for hauling on the 5mm R8 and other 6mm ski ropes. 

Marc801 C wrote:

Rapping and/or ascending a 6mm cord?
No, thank you. 

Even if it had an over 2000kg break load and was EN and UIAA-certified?  Would it just be the optics of such a skinny rope?  It takes some getting used to, I know, but engineering doesn't lie...

Would you do it on 8mm?

@Gavin: the R8 you're using has a thicker cover than what I'm designing, to give it that nubbly feel.  That's at the cost of a thinner core, and added difficulty in splicing. I'm using something more akin to Marlow D2 Race, where there's a maximum of Dyneema in the core.  But yes, I'm hoping when I have a product well-developed, to probe the ski-mountaineering market.

As for a video of the thread's topic in use: stand by, and I'll chuck one up on my YouTube channel soon.

Ben Zartman wrote:

I have spoken to Ryan Jenks, but since he's running a retail store, he's unwilling to make a video of gear he isn't willing to sell, especially since it's better than anything he's currently offering.

I find it really strange because Ryan routinely tests janky gear. Also, I find it incredulous that he would say that your "gear is better than anything" he sells - since up to this point you haven't presenting any objective verifications of the claimed benefits of your products. 

Ben Zartman wrote:

Is the cost really the only objection?

Your product, at the claimed strength of 10 kN, is inferior to all the similar products on the market, and with the typical strength reduction when ultra-static materials are used with a knot or hitch to secure a masterpoint, may have low enough levels of strength to fail at loads that are possible in climbing scenarios.

Your continued insistence that you have a superior product, despite the aforementioned basic facts to the contrary, are troubling for a business selling safety critical products to the public.

you just don't think there's an improvement with spliced rope over webbing?

This is not about splicing vs. sewing, it's about overall product capabilities and the requirements of the application.

  All the load-bearing fibers of that webbing are exposed to sun and chafe, where mine are protected from both.

While this is probably not really an issue in typical use, if this is something that people are concerned with, there are multiple offerings from trustworthy companies that also have sheaths over a load-bearing core.

Ben, I was watching a few of your splicing videos on Youtube and did a search to find your webstore. I ended up finding a Chris van Leuven story about you on Gripped from a couple years ago, which is really interesting and talks about your climbing cred and other history. Am posting this for others here:
https://gripped.com/profiles/ben-zartman-i-was-the-ultimate-climbing-and-sailing-dirtbag-i-had-no-car-or-money/

I'm looking forward to seeing the video that Slim suggested of how the spliced eyes work.

i don't really understand what the innovation might be here...? if you have 2 ropes with spliced-end eyelets, and if joining them with a knot or locker is "too bulky" for some obscure reason, I'd then use a quicklink, which would not be any bulkier than a spliced end. 

@amarius: Ryan tests gear that has been sun-cooked, abused, or is inferior or equal to what he's peddling.  For him to test something better would beg the question: why not stock it in his store?

@Kyle: the Anchor Extender is weakest in single-strand: so are all the other anchor products you linked to earlier, which being Spectra or Dyneema themselves, have the same static properties as mine.  When used as intended, to build an equalized anchor, where you wind up with a minimum of two strands, even if you tie a BFK (I prefer a girth hitch to the masterpoint 'biner as stronger), it's massively stronger than any load reasonably to be expected in climbing.  And if you can figure out how to shockload a static anchor without something having gone horribly wrong, your imagination is commendable.

@Terry, thanks for the kind words.  I have just now posted the requested video on my YouTube channel at Zartman Rigging.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe2V8m-q-j4

Let's see if that link works.

Fan Y wrote:

i don't really understand what the innovation might be here...? if you have 2 ropes with spliced-end eyelets, and if joining them with a knot or locker is "too bulky" for some obscure reason, I'd then use a quicklink, which would not be any bulkier than a spliced end. 

He's not selling lockers or quicklinks

PWZ wrote:

He's not selling lockers or quicklinks

I'm not selling lashings either: this thread was to float an idea to judge the herd's gut reaction to it.  I don't yet offer the sort of rope I'm ultimately envisioning for this application.  Product development is a long and expensive process, and some avenues may not be worth pursuing commercially (for my own use, I'm already there) if people can't wrap their heads around them.

Ben Zartman wrote:

Even if it had an over 2000kg break load and was EN and UIAA-certified?  Would it just be the optics of such a skinny rope?  It takes some getting used to, I know, but engineering doesn't lie...

No, it doesn't matter. I don't like using such a skinny rope for anything other than a tag line/pull cord. I  don't really care what the engineering and certification specs say - for me it is indeed the optics.

Would you do it on 8mm?

I've rapped on an 8mm static and that's the lowest I would go. As far as jugging, I don't even like that on a 9mm.

Ben Zartman wrote:

When used as intended, to build an equalized anchor, where you wind up with a minimum of two strands, even if you tie a BFK (I prefer a girth hitch to the masterpoint 'biner as stronger), it's massively stronger than any load reasonably to be expected in climbing.

Dyneema cords generally lose ~50% of their strength when tied in a knot, so your 2-strand anchor can fail at loads of ~5 kN on a leg.  Very few people would consider that an acceptable climbing anchor.  All of the other products have a significantly higher MBS (14 to 17 kN single strand), and also may retain higher level of strength when knotted.

the Anchor Extender is weakest in single-strand: so are all the other anchor products you linked to earlier, which being Spectra or Dyneema themselves, have the same static properties as mine.

A 100% dyneema product will lose ~40-50% of strength in a knot.  The Ultratape used in the Mountain Tools product is different construction, and a blend of dyneema and nylon.  The testing done by Moyer (et al) in 2000 suggests that it retains more like 80% of its strength when tied in a knot (~11 kN), and that a single arm of it fails above 12 kN in a tied anchor configuration (compared to likely 5-6 kN for yours).

Marc801 C wrote:

No, it doesn't matter. I don't like using such a skinny rope for anything other than a tag line/pull cord. I  don't really care what the engineering and certification specs say - for me it is indeed the optics.

I've rapped on an 8mm static and that's the lowest I would go. As far as jugging, I don't even like that on a 9mm.

The issue is t break strength but rather resistance to severing. Rapping on rock on 6mm is borderline suicidal behavior. Maybe if I were free-rappelling I would consider it.

Jared E wrote:

The issue is t break strength but rather resistance to severing. Rapping on rock on 6mm is borderline suicidal behavior. Maybe if I were free-rappelling I would consider it.

This seems quite situationally dependent. For one - some areas/routes have more sharp edges than others, and another is the makeup of said rope. There are many 6mm ropes on the market these days that are made with technora/dyneema that are very cut resistant (I would imagine much moreso than, say, a thin twin rope that is all nylon). Technora sheath/dyneema core, or all dyneema like the Pur line are shockingly difficult to cut even with scissors or a knife.