Joining two ropes with a lashing for a rappel

Ben-  at the very least, you have achieved something remarkable here.  You’ve united the far corners of MP geekery (who are typically squabbling idly amongst ourselves at the most trivial of issues) into near full alignment.  

I will consider your wares in my next search for a problem I don’t currently have.  

Edit:  the only known person to actually find value in a sheepshank 

Kyle Tarrywrote:

You said you were 20% lighter, but you actually are the same weight?  A RAD line is already strong enough to be used as a haul line and as a tag line, so additional strength does not really add value.

240 cm (7.9 ft) sewn dyneema slings are very common.  DMM, Mammut, BD, Edelrid, and others make them.  They weigh ~70g and cost less than 30 bucks.  DMM also makes a 400 cm (13 foot) version.

Mountain Tools makes a similar rabbit runner type product, the Web-o-lette, available in 10, 12, and 14 ft lengths, which weighs 73g in the 10 ft size, and will hold a knot.

I do not see why you would insist that your products can't be compared to sewn runners.  You were comparing them to tied nylon cordalettes, why would we not also compare them to sewn slings that have similar size, construction, and usage?

Your 60cm sewn runners cost $60 each (!!!!) and I don’t see a weight on your website, so it’s hard to compare.

Blue Ice also makes a runner with a dyneema core and a separate protective sheath.  They are $15 and 20g for the 60cm version.

No, I said the aggregate weight of static cordage could be reduced.  I didn't know people were hauling on the RAD.  Maybe I'm late to the party--it's good to know other people are thinking thinner and lighter as well.

You should compare my products to sewn runners, but to ones of the same lengths, and there see the superiority of splices over sewn seams.

I don't have any 60cm sewn runners: that's the whole point--I'm eliminating sewn seams.  My Seamless Runner is $60.  Funny, the exact same runner from a rig shop geared toward boats wouldn't leave the door for less than $100.  Sure, the price threshold is high, like any luxury brand, but they exceed in value all other products out there.  In other words, those who have taken the plunge and begun using them have found them worth the price and then some.  Many of my customers return for more pretty quickly.

Can you link to the Blue Ice runner you mention? I only see tubular ones, but no mention of a separate core.  Also, they all have a gauche sewn connection.

I think you missed your calling, Ben. You should be a politician.

I think this is a very interesting topic. People are hauling on the PUR and RAD line, the former is specifically advertised as such.

I would like to understand the advantage of a spliced sling vs a sewn one.

The blue ice runners are an infinite loop of dyneema in a tubular protective sheet and sewn on the ends. There is a video on YouTube talking about the construction I think.

Back to the topic of a spliced eye in a rope. I do not see the benefit for myself, since I only have three ropes (a single and a pair) and would not want to afford another one for a very niche use case that I can cover well enough with my normal ropes and an appropriate knot. However if someone is using the rope often and does see a benefit for themselves, why not? People are free to innovate and people are free to buy what seems to solve their need.

Pavel Pavelovishwrote:

I think this is a very interesting topic. People are hauling on the PUR and RAD line, the former is specifically advertised as such.

I would like to understand the advantage of a spliced sling vs a sewn one.

The blue ice runners are an infinite loop of dyneema in a tubular protective sheet and sewn on the ends. There is a video on YouTube talking about the construction I think.

Back to the topic of a spliced eye in a rope. I do not see the benefit for myself, since I only have three ropes (a single and a pair) and would not want to afford another one for a very niche use case that I can cover well enough with my normal ropes and an appropriate knot. However if someone is using the rope often and does see a benefit for themselves, why not? People are free to innovate and people are free to buy what seems to solve their need.

A sewn sling has a series of bar tacks where the ends of the webbing it's made from overlap.  That overlapped spot is hard and inflexible: it has to be carefully managed when girth-hitching the sling to a pin or building an anchor.  Not super-hard to do, but often annoying.  The stitches that secure the sling are exposed to UV and chafe, and the sling itself has usually all the load-bearing fibers exposed to the elements, rather than decently covered.  I'll be interested to see how these Blue Ice slings are put together.

Pavel Pavelovishwrote:

.........The blue ice runners are an infinite loop of dyneema in a tubular protective sheet and sewn on the ends. There is a video on YouTube talking about the construction I think.

David Gibbswrote:

Having a spliced loop in the end of my climbing rope would make this whole idea a non-starter for me.

+1

...and tacky.

Complexity is already a problem which causes problems further down the track. It looks too complicated and overdone IMO.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication...

Never had any problems with the EDK.  I've rapped with that hundreds of times on clean terrain and on terrain littered with obstructions and cracks for it to get stuck in.  It's happened once, and was fairly easy to free.  This is 99% a solution in search of a problem.  And it's "rappelling".  

this is revolutionary Ben you’re a literal genius, may I kiss your climbing shoes?

Terry Ewrote:

Thanks for the vid.  I make shorter versions of that for my quickdraws, but the core is braided cord, which can be spliced rather than just wound unis (Uni Directional Fibers), which they don't indicate how (or whether) the ends are attached.  Notice their cover doesn't wrap around the eyes, but requires a separate piece and an awkward wrapper.

For those who accuse me of solutions looking for problems, isn't this the same thing?  Why is there not rage toward Blue Ice?  I say, good on them for innovating.  And good luck with the sarcastic thugs here on MP.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

You should compare my products to sewn runners, but to ones of the same lengths, and there see the superiority of splices over sewn seams.

Alternative products from established manufacturers (Mountain Tools Web-O-Lette, Bluewater Titan Rabbit Runner, Yates Rabbit Runner) are all rated to 13 kN or more as single strand, they will pass the UIAA 22 kN minimum strength when clipped into a loop, and they are sewn in a controlled manner that ensures you aren't likely to get a bad unit.  And, they are 1/3-1/2 the price.  The lack of sewing seems irrelevant on rabbit runners, since there is a bulky loop at the end anyway, and the stitching can't migrate down into the masterpoint because it's clipped.

https://www.mtntools.com/cat/mt/web/mt_webolette.htm

https://www.bluewaterropes.com/product/13mm-titan-anchor-slings-rabbit-runners

https://www.yatesgear.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1022

Caveat emptor, etc.

Sad that everyone here can’t appreciate being dragged by the sheer force of zartmans unique genius into a future where gear is less flexible, more dangerous, and more expensive, but weighs a little less.

We’d all still be living in caves if it weren’t for heroes like him.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

A sewn sling has a series of bar tacks where the ends of the webbing it's made from overlap.  That overlapped spot is hard and inflexible: it has to be carefully managed when girth-hitching the sling to a pin or building an anchor.  Not super-hard to do, but often annoying.  The stitches that secure the sling are exposed to UV and chafe, and the sling itself has usually all the load-bearing fibers exposed to the elements, rather than decently covered. 

I follow advances in gear technology, and adopt them regularly, but if this is an example of your rationale, it's kind of a stretch. Look I respect your inventiveness and your enthusiasm, but those things you mention are quite trivial.

Consider this thread and the responses here to be good market research.  There are technology inventions, like camming devices, which were so obviously a great addition to the toolbox that they were adopted very quickly.  Other tools, like belay glasses, appeal to some people and not others.

I am not in the market for the solution to the problem "two rope rappelling without knots", because to me, it is not a frequent enough problem to need addressing:

1. I find that rope hangups with rope pulls after rapping occur just as frequently, if not more frequently, because the end of the rope wraps itself around something. People typically know how to deal with this, and your product doesn't decrease the likelihood of this, more common, event.

2. Situations where the middle knot in two ropes will have a likelihood of getting caught are highly situational and can often be anticipated and dealt with in advance.  For example, at Red Rock where low angle terrain and large features can cause this, the second person to wrap can move, walk the knot down to the point where the pull is less problematic. I do this all the time if I anticipate an issue.

3. A large % of routes people climb these days, especially modern routes, are equipted for rapping so one doesn't need 2 ropes, many many routes I do I use a 60 or 70 or 80 and there is no knot.

But good luck if this is your passion.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

(...) haul and tag lines that weigh 20% of what normal ones do, and pack in a quarter of the space!

Several people have for tag lines, more so in canyoneering where there is less stuff to snag on and less problems with wind. Pulling down these lines are not fun. They tangle easily too. I have one thats like 65m of about 1/8" amsteel... but it must have been a bad batch of coating, it comes off as a sticky rubbery mess onto carabiners and gums up carabiner pulleys.

Haul lines, people have been going to thin ones, but not too thin, they have to still work well in a PCD, so that usually limits it to about 7mm normal accessory cord or 6mm high tech cord. More so on very clean overhung sport or trad lines and where the weight to haul is minimal, like a backpack with some jackets and water, and abrasion isn't much of an issue. Normal Big Wall is too rough and the weight to haul is too high for very thin ropes. You could certainly make a case for a more expensive but much lighter rope that could still handle big wall use with a fatter diameter, like say 8mm Amsteel or something... Inherently its hollow so no sheath to take abuse, its all structural. There are double braid ropes, but they are so much more time consuming to splice and I imagine it would be a tough sell the cost of one of these ropes vs a cheap static to beat up.

Imagine all your slings taking up less room over your shoulder, your rack of quickdraws packing smaller, your hooks and birdbeaks slung without knotted webbing.  Imagine an anchor-building cordelette without knots in it, that was stronger, lighter, and wouldn't absorb water, like nylon cordelettes do!  Even without the weight savings, the reduction in bulk of using spliced materials like I'm developing is huge.

Yeah, all this has been discussed before in other threads. Several people have done it. I have 120cm rabbit runners that weight significantly less than 60cm loop slings. Theoretically totally strong enough single strand compared to the strength of like a good sized cam, quite comfortably strong doubled up... but single strand and then knots for some reason and you get into a realm of questionable strength that you don't want to be in. I might know that... but if I hand it to a partner, they wouldn't. The spliced rabbit runners that I have seen sold commercially step way up in size to allow single strand to still be 22kN, in which case the weight and bulk savings are no longer that significant.

I went to Sterling with these ideas, talked to their engineers for four hours, broke samples on their hydraulic test bench, and at the end of it all, while they acknowledged the coolness, they said "we probably can't make money on it."  Not "This is bad," not "This is dangerous," but "sewing is quicker than splicing." Lame.

Yes. This has been discussed. The time cost of splicing vs sewing is massive. For a company like BD, Mammut, etc... trying to sell a high volume of slings at a competitive price, sewing is the way to go. For a smaller company that doesn't care about high volume and just wants to sell some to the weirdos like us, they can do splicing and just jack the price up. If someone develops a machine which can splice significantly faster than a human, flawlessly... then maybe that could change one day.

Ben please tell me. What is the name of your company? 

I’m an arborist and work with spliced rope ends all the time.  There are a few specialty applications where I find them useful, but by and large they lack versatility and don’t add considerable benefit.  

In my field it is common practice to attach the rope to your harness (saddle) using a spliced end and carabiner. It’s a fast and simple system but will need examined closely to apply to a world of dynamic falls.  Maybe the recreational climbing world will get there someday.  

Tree work cordage has many splices applied as an end stop (so that devices can not slide off the end of a line).  This is better done as a Guache style sewn loop not a true splice.  A true splice like demonstrated here doesn’t actually change the diameter or flexibility of the cord as much and many devices can still slide off the end.  I could see an ATC or similar letting an 8mm line with a spliced end slip through.  

As far as tying knots behind a splice is concerned, it’s only a minor annoyance.  Spliced ends are usually only 6ish inches long and their rigidity makes it hard for them to slip back through a knot.  I could see it being hard to untie a heavily loaded knot too close to the splice.

In general, spliced ends are most useful when the user plans to clip and unclip frequently.  Thus I could see their application being useful in anchors and draws, where speed and repetition are factors.  Potentially in rappels and hard point connections, but I have major reservations there.  Maybe with properly designed carabiners?

As far as the original proposed method of rappel, I’m a pretty hard no.  Rappels need to be obvious, fast and repeatable.  That little strand of BS between the splices is not practical for regular use.  Maybe a soft shackle or a carabiner.  But if my climbing partner tried to set up a rappel like that I would swat them and tie an EDK instead.  Sure, the original pictured method could be useful in outlying circumstances.  Tuna cans hammered into cracks are occasionally useful for rappel as well.  

Maybe this was explained earlier, but I’m confused on the material specifics of this spliced rope.  It’s a 6mm dyneema core spliced on the ends?  Is there a sheath?  Does the splice integrate the sheath?  Is this just a static haul/rap line or climbing line as well?  

I think the OP has gotten pulled into the ego game of posting here.  Clearly splicing has applications, but this is a marginal one.  He’s making a very hard sell that asks the user to learn new methods, acquire specialized equipment and pay more for it.  That might work out for draws or other short cordage if there are benefits but I don’t think there’s a big enough market for spliced rope ends.

Gates out!

Kyle Tarrywrote:

Alternative products from established manufacturers (Mountain Tools Web-O-Lette, Bluewater Titan Rabbit Runner, Yates Rabbit Runner) are all rated to 13 kN or more as single strand, they will pass the UIAA 22 kN minimum strength when clipped into a loop, and they are sewn in a controlled manner that ensures you aren't likely to get a bad unit.  And, they are 1/3-1/2 the price.  The lack of sewing seems irrelevant on rabbit runners, since there is a bulky loop at the end anyway, and the stitching can't migrate down into the masterpoint because it's clipped.

https://www.mtntools.com/cat/mt/web/mt_webolette.htm

https://www.bluewaterropes.com/product/13mm-titan-anchor-slings-rabbit-runners

https://www.yatesgear.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1022

Caveat emptor, etc.

Sooo, the idea itself isn't bad, you just don't think there's an improvement with spliced rope over webbing?  All the load-bearing fibers of that webbing are exposed to sun and chafe, where mine are protected from both.  I have similar size ranges, and offer custom sizing if I'm simply emailed about it.  Is the cost really the only objection?  I wish I could make them at a scale that brought the cost down, but until the technology gathers some traction and gets over this hump of suspicion of new things that is promoted here in MP, it might take a while.

For the person who asked: (Guy? sorry, I can't scroll up to see other replies): my gear is Zartman Rigging.  My webstore, for now, resides on my website/blog, www.zartmancruising.com

My UIAA certs are under Abednego Marine, the official business name under which Zartman Rigging is a brand.  I know it's complicated, but eventually I'll have everything more streamlined.  You have to start with what you have, and making, designing, and testing products is more importatnt than a dedicated website right now.

For the sarcastic responder who thinks the only advantage is that they're lighter, I'm happy to say you're wrong.  They're also more brightly colored! But seriously: they're more durable, and every bit as flexible and versatile as sewn runners, with less bulkiness.

The rope connection technique shown here seems a little crazy to me, as do 60 dollar slings.. That being said, I have contemplated a spliced loop in the end of a rappel/light hauling line (5mm Marlow R8 to be specific). My reasoning is that it would be low profile to clip to a carabiner in a carabiner block/reepshnur setup, make a tidy loop to clip packs to for hauling, as well as a slick attachment to a beal escaper with a girth hitch. 

All this is to say, I don't think this is 100% crazy.. I think many commenters are missing the fact that this is all contingent on static ropes with a braided dyneema core, e.g. not something you would be tying into on a regular basis, if ever, and certainly nothing you would lead climb on. As far as the half hitch (or whatever it is) connection, it seems quite inelegant relative to your other products. How about a soft shackle, or some sort of a toggle? 

Although I appreciate your out-of-the-box, adventurous concept....I am happy with knot or carabiner blocks or double ropes knotted together.  Call me old fashioned but sewn ends skeev me out.  Best of luck to you though.  Maybe send it to Ryan Jenks and get him to break test it?

I would also be interested in seeing a HowNot2 vid of this tech. Maybe the use cases would be more apparent if we saw some testing and explanation on video.

As for use cases, my big concern would be cut resistance. 

For big walls, you mentioned rappelling, I believe.   So I put your two eye spliced ropes in the bottom of my haul bag, haul them to the top, and then use them to rap. But then, I'm carrying 2 ropes all the way to the top for the fairly marginal benefit of snag resistance on the way down. Extra weight and volume concerns warn against this. 

I could haul on one of your lines - the spliced eye would be nifty for clipping the haul bag into - but then I'm still carrying one rope all the way to the top just to rappel with - but maybe I'll use it for some fixing on the way up? However, I'd be concerned about rope diameter - both my jumar and my protrax are only rated down to 8mm, while you say your ropes are 6mm. Also, I would feel a lot more comfortable jugging and hauling on a thicker line, in case I miss an edge that I should put a rope protector on for my jug line, or my haul bag rolls and sends the rope over a sharp flake. I will admit ignorance here - maybe more practiced wall climbers or riggers can comment on the effectiveness of using 6mm dyneema in common PCDs. And maybe dyneema in the construction you use has better cut resistance than standard nylon? But without these assurances, I would be quite wary.

I've only done a little caving, so I can't say I really know the ins and outs. But I know that cavers almost always enter and exit via the same route. So they fix their line, rap it, do whatever they are doing down in the mucky darkness, then ascend out. Often, they will just leave the rap line in place for decades. The big thing cavers care about when picking ropes is abrasion resistance - how well will it handle being soaked in mud and jugged on for decades, and how well would it handle being dragged across a sharp limestone edge if some part of the system directing the rope fails? A secondary consideration is how well you can control your descent when the rope is covered in mud. This is probably why every caving rope I've ever seen is, like, 11mm. I could imagine a really high end first descent team exploring a multi day cave wanting lighter, more compact, skinnier ropes - but even then, they will leave their lines fixed as they go. So if your use case is pulling double rope raps, the nature of cave exploration precludes it.

Canyoneering has similar issues. Canyoneers do pull their ropes and carry them through the canyon, and so have a preference for lighter, skinnier ropes. They care a lot about abrasion resistance, but less about cut resistance, as there are few sharp edges in canyons. Canyons are formed by running water, which tends to round off sharp edges. It has already been mentioned that canyoners typically rap off the ends of their ropes, though I don't think this is a dealbreaker for your ropes, as canyoners tend to use modified figure 8 rappel devices where spliced rope could (presumably) pass through easily. The problem you'll have marketing your product to canyoneers is that canyoneers don't do double rope raps. Well, okay, sometimes they do, but they are never planning to rely solely on double rope raps. Their default is rapping a single strand with a block. This has advantages for canyoners in flowing water canyons, as it allows them to adjust rope length as the first person goes down to get the rope end *just* above the water, as well as providing the option to lower someone from above if they are incapacitated on rappel by the flowing water. For canyoneers in dry canyons, they may use different rappelling setups depending on the situation. A double rope rap is an option - but they will want to save time by feeding out only enough rope to reach the ground, then tossing the rope bag, saving themselves the trouble of packing up the excess rope when they are done. More experienced teams will fiddlestick their rappels. The first person in the party needs only to tie the rope end into a block with the fiddle stick, then toss the rope bag. A pull cord can be set up at the party's leisure. Then all faffing with the rappel can happen after the rappel is complete, when others are moving down canyon, rather than faffery happening at the top when the whole party is waiting on you. And fiddlesticking comes with *another* advantage, which is that the difficulty in retrieving canyoneering ropes is typically overcoming friction from the rope running over rounded edges, which is caused by the weight of the rope that must be pulled *up* to get through the mallion. With a fiddlestick, you need only pull hard enough to pop the fiddlestick, and the whole system comes down. Concerns about, say, a biner block getting chocked during a pull, aren't really warranted. The flowing water that forms the canyons typically precludes the sort of cracks where gear or knots could get wedged. So I think it would be a hard sell for canyoners and canyoneers as well.

That said, I'd be interested in hearing about the edge cases where this solution might be useful.