TR-ing on Mussy Hooks Cool in Yosemite?

I was climbing at Lower Falls Amp last weekend and got into a fairly heated discussion with a climber who insisted on TR-ing off mussy hooks which pertained to all three: Guiding Light (10b) Lightweight Guides (10b) and People (12d). There were multiple parties on each line. When my friend topped LWG, he asked the climber below why he was TRing GL off the mussy hooks, to which the climber responded "that's what they're there for; they are not cold shuts/rings. they are meant to be TR'd off of."

I know that in some places on the East Coast, that is the ethic bc it is true that mussy hooks are more resilient. But that's never been my understanding in Yosemite. When I pushed back that 1. there were multiple (very popular) routes on this anchor, which would 3x the wear and 2. it was poor form to monopolize the anchor that is intended for lowering other parties, the dude had a conniption. I didnt want to escalate, so I let it go. But I feel like some other folks with stronger feelings (and who actually do bolt replacement in Yos) wouldn't have. 

Am I missing something here? Is it not the ethic in Yos to never TR on fixed gear? Any climbing rangers (or adjacent) want to weigh in?

Thanks,
AC

I can't speak to the ethics, I think it's complicated in Yosemite, the lower falls amp especially since it is a relatively newly popular area, not many other spots have mussys.

Personally, I don't get why not tr off of two quick draws, it takes 10 seconds and saves this whole discussion and the gear. Donate to the asca too. 

As a general rule, TRing on fixed gear is not in accordance with ethics regardless of what some rando might say. I mean, at least that's my experience. Carrying 4 carabiners and a sling or even just 2 draws isn't going to break the bank so to me, wearing out fixed gear like that is inexcusable. 

My own cranky opinion is that if building a basic anchor on a couple bolts is too much for someone to handle, they shouldn't be climbing at all until they've received instruction on how to build and clean an anchor safely.

I generally don’t agree with toproping through route hardware but I do kind of agree that’s what mussys are for. They’re inches thicker than a standard lower off biner and I haven’t in my life seen anything resembling a mussy anywhere close to the end of its life. Definitely not saying it can’t or doesn’t happen, that’s just my anecdotal experience. I’m pretty quick to ask people to not TR through rings or whatever but personally wouldn’t have an issue with this. 2 cents 

Armando Cordoves Jrwrote:

I was climbing at Lower Falls Amp last weekend and got into a fairly heated discussion with a climber who insisted on TR-ing off mussy hooks which pertained to all three: Guiding Light (10b) Lightweight Guides (10b) and People (12d). There were multiple parties on each line. When my friend topped LWG, he asked the climber below why he was TRing GL off the mussy hooks, to which the climber responded "that's what they're there for; they are not cold shuts/rings. they are meant to be TR'd off of."

I know that in some places on the East Coast, that is the ethic bc it is true that mussy hooks are more resilient. But that's never been my understanding in Yosemite. When I pushed back that 1. there were multiple (very popular) routes on this anchor, which would 3x the wear and 2. it was poor form to monopolize the anchor that is intended for lowering other parties, the dude had a conniption. I didnt want to escalate, so I let it go. But I feel like some other folks with stronger feelings (and who actually do bolt replacement in Yos) wouldn't have.

Am I missing something here? Is it not the ethic in Yos to never TR on fixed gear? Any climbing rangers (or adjacent) want to weigh in?

Thanks,
AC

How is  monopolizing a route related to TR'ing off mussy's ? Seem like two separate issues to me.

I think youre allowed to tr off mussys if you've replaced a mussy/rap station/perma draw  within the last 6 months and you can show your daily quota of picking up 6 pieces of left behind trash around your crag.  

despite having mussy privileges, no conversation should get heated about this because you will have met your quota and the fellow climber should be able to smell your street cred from a mile away.  

edit: sorry folks, drawing "X"s on holds does not count towards your stewardship quota. try again

Another reason not to TR on mussy hooks, ethics aside - the risk that you have a new climber who climbs up to the anchor or just above it, makes a step across, and manages to unclip the rope from both mussy hooks upon weighting it.  

Reference - this accident that killed a young girl in Alabama last year right around this time. They weren't TRing on mussy hooks, but it goes to show how easy it can be to unclip a rope from them if you're new and unaware of the danger. IMO, the less time the rope is through the mussys only, the better.

E MuuDwrote:

How is  monopolizing a route related to TR'ing off mussy's ? Seem like two separate issues to me.

I think they were pointing out that it’s a shared anchor with 2 other routes so no one doing one of the other routes would be able to lower, so it’s effectively monopolizing 3 routes, which is pretty uncool if it’s at all likely someone shows up wanting to do one of those other routes.

Don’t think it’s a terrible thing to do and could maybe see doing it once in a while as a matter of convenience if the last climber might not make it to the chains or something, but it’s really not that hard to throw an anchor on bolts so it really shouldn’t be anyone’s go  to for safety (they don’t lock and generally aren’t opposed) and wear reasons.

In a lot of places I've been to, it seems to be locals that TR through the fixed gear and then say, "we'll I donated to the coalition". Seems lazy and unnecessary

Tanner Jameswrote:

I generally don’t agree with toproping through route hardware but I do kind of agree that’s what mussys are for. They’re inches thicker than a standard lower off biner and I haven’t in my life seen anything resembling a mussy anywhere close to the end of its life. Definitely not saying it can’t or doesn’t happen, that’s just my anecdotal experience. I’m pretty quick to ask people to not TR through rings or whatever but personally wouldn’t have an issue with this. 2 cents 

MP Thread: Mussy v 'biner for Top Roping

your partner just cleaning the route, likely not even weighting the anchor until lowering? Probably fine to just clip the mussys.

got a crew that is likely to all flail around on a top rope hangdog session?Make some kind of anchor.

Hogging shared descent hardware with a top rope at a popular area sounds like a great way to get your TR rope unclipped and dropped on you. 

A hard reason to NOT toprope on mussy hooks is that they are typically  installed such that both gates are pointing forward. This is the suggested orientation for using them as lowering hardware, which is their intended use. Because both gates are pointing forward, a party toproping directly off the mussy hooks is at risk of the rope accidentally resting over the gates and becoming unclipped while someone is climbing.

Am I missing something here?

Yes, you should have whipped his ass!  

How hard is it to hang an anchor?  I got into it with someone doing the same at CoR.  Bullshit in my book.

J W wrote:

That would certainly be a good reason, but how much of a risk is it? Has it ever happened?

A bit different since there was a locker in the system, but the musseys still unclipped.

https://gripped.com/news/a-climber-dies-after-anchor-accident-in-u-s-a/

TaylorPwrote:

A bit different since there was a locker in the system, but the musseys still unclipped.

https://gripped.com/news/a-climber-dies-after-anchor-accident-in-u-s-a/

From that very article: "We had an extra locker on the top anchor we left for her to take off when she got to the top. We put the locker in on the incredibly unlikely premise that the mussys could come unclipped. "

She was cleaning the anchor which led to the fall. Had they simply been top roping through the mussys, she'd likely still be alive. 

Draw whatever conclusion you want. The accident was thoroughly hashed out in a previous thread (if interested, y'all can search, I'm too lazy.)

TR and lower through the hooks or quick links to avoid fucking up. Replace them when they are getting worn. Simple

M Lwrote:

 Replace them when they are getting worn. Simple

You buying?  Please send your ASCA receipt and Will Sew For Bolts will ship you something cool made from old rope.  Since I support ASCA, it pisses me off to see people TR on the fixed gear.  Easy to say "replace" and assume it will happen by magic.

Seems like the unintended fatality has clarified musseys are fine for lead, loop and lower (safely) but are not “safe” for top roping due to going above and out of the hooks, as well as potential “pig tails” rerouting the rope out, and poor “base of climb” rope to mussey angles. Seems like plenty of reasons not to “top rope” thru musseys. And of course excess wear.

Now we need to concentrate on how to safely clean anchors, especially for top roping. Cleaning anchors should be perfected on the ground then accompanied when informed but inexperienced.

Jay Andersonwrote:

You buying?  Please send your ASCA receipt and Will Sew For Bolts will ship you something cool made from old rope.  Since I support ASCA, it pisses me off to see people TR on the fixed gear.  Easy to say "replace" and assume it will happen by magic.

Not only should the "TR through the hardware" crowd be buying, but also carrying around replacements and a wrench everywhere to do the actual work of replacing when needed. Sure, a lead, lower and then the follower clean the pitch isn't that big of a deal, but long, group TR sessions? 

Then the other part that many seem to be missing is the shared anchor aspect. Nobody on the other routes could lower off that anchor while it was being used for a TR session. Just poor etiquette all around, whether in Yosemite or elsewhere.