Grand Teton FKT-ers (when the OS is icy)

I was up on the Grand last Friday, September 6 with a good buddy of mine, with plans to simul-solo the upper exum or the OS, and descend the OS. At the hose near the lower saddle we heard from a guide who had just descended and told us the OS had some ice in the chimneys. So we decided to climb and descend the OS, so that we were prepared for the icy bits. Once above the the lower saddle, we encountered a couple of parties moving up, mostly solo-ers.

The chimneys did indeed have some icy bits, but with diligence and care, it wasn't heinous. Climbing the last wandery bits, we encountered a couple more parties, and these ones were all roped up. On the way down to the chimneys, I overheard someone exclaim; 'whoa are you going for the record or something?' and I glanced up to see someone cruising up, I heard FKTer say 'well not today since it's so icy, but I should be close to the record.'

By now a couple of those roped parties were rappelling the sargeant's chimney. As we slowed down/stopped, the FKTer showed up. I told my buddy, 'let's let them go' he nodded and we watched; the last person had rappelled and was waiting to pull their rope. The FKTer saw this and then hastily down climbed, looked at the dude waiting to pull his rope and thanked him for being so patient as they passed him. He then looked at us, somewhat perturbed, and asked if we were coming too. We told him we would wait for him to pull his rope.

As we made it down to the Owen chimney, which had the most ice, FKTer was right ahead of us. 'I never come this way' they exclaimed as they started downclimbing. My partner and I took our time, but they were still in the Owen chimney as we started down. I wish we would have waited longer, as FKTer was climbing erratically and did not look calm and collected from above. At a certain point, I thought I heard them say 'Just get back to the car', my buddy heard 'just get back to the crack'. Woof. 

I fully understand the risks we were taking, soloing the OS in icy conditions on a busy Grand. However, I hadn't ever experienced such poor ethics in a busy mountain environment, and so I hadn't anticipated witnessing such disrespectful mountain travel. If they 'weren't even going for the record', why climb through people's rappels? Why downclimb hastily in front of two other people, yelling that 'you never come this way'?

I get that the reality of today is a wild-west free for all. Lots of people solo the Grand, and many do it very quickly. I guess I'm curious to hear from some of you with regards to the ethics of FKTing/ moving so fast you cannot respect other parties, on a busy mountain such as the Grand. I get that the ice adds another factor to this. From my perspective it was gross to witness, and made the FKT crowd look ugly. I have to imagine there's a better way to fuse climbing and FKT ethics, especially on a busy peak like the Grand.

I’m just curious, can you clarify what the issue was? Did they not ask permission to down climb through the party? Downclimbing the os a different way doesn’t seem like a big deal. There’s a lot of ways to go. Maybe I’ve missed something!

As a climber who has been around the block for a while, as well as someone who has been more dedicated to developing endurance, which by default exposed me to more trail runners in the last couple years, I’d like to throw my two cents in. With hopes that others can have some sort of a positive takeaway and be more respectful to each other, as both pursuits (climbing and trail running) are as beautiful as they are pointless. :) We all are mountain people who should treat each other like we want to be treated.

Also, my friend and I did an FKT that went over the Grand Teton and climbed those same iced chimneys, a day prior - on Friday. What we did is called the Teton Crest Uppercut and is a pretty cool route that runs about 30 miles, mostly on Teton Crest trail, before summiting the Grand and finishing by Jenny Lake for a total of 41.5 miles. When I saw this thread for a second I thought you might be talking about us, but it doesn’t represent what I remember about passing people climbing or rappelling and was also on a different day. We did everything in a pretty controlled manner, as yes, the chimneys were icy and had to be climbed slowly and methodically, keeping three points of contact at all times. I hope anyone that was around that day remembers it the same! I personally can only remember pleasant exchanges with people around, but at times other people’s interpretations could be different. A subjective experience is often linked to a person’s mood. I was in a great mood because I was in the mountains, a place where I’m more comfortable. :) Also, it seems like you are talking about a single FKTer. 

As a climber with loads of experience (I’ve free soloed 5.11c/WI5) and 5.9/10a in approach shoes, in the past), I was comfortable yet not too self confident to lose focus and made it pretty clear to others around that conditions are not ideal and they and us should be on top of our game to stay safe, and not give off a vibe of someone who is not being careful. People usually die on easier routes due to lack of attention, not on 5.11, so I respect this sort of terrain, even exposed hiking. I feel like everyone was safe and pleasant on Friday.

So trail runners, climbers and people hoping to snag the speed record on the Grand, Mount Whitney, Matterhorn, Denali…whatever mountain….EVERYONE has the right to be there. Beginners guided on their first trip in the mountains, all of us were there, as well as people going from parking lot to summit in ridiculously fast times, deserve to have their experience. I personally believe that if someone is skilled enough to go that fast, they will not slow you down, so it is fairly easy to let them pass, which takes just a second when they are unroped, going ridiculously fast on a route with loads of spots to go by people (within reason). They are probably not taking any bigger of a risk than you are at your speed, because people that go for those types of speed records work the route like it’s a sport climb, literally trying every variation, learning every foothold etc etc. Before they do it, they usually acquire climbing/scrambling skills that allow them to do what they are doing at the speeds that they are traveling. Not that they are less likely to die than anyone else around.

One concern that some guides pointed out below the shoulder, because they saw we had running vests (I identify as a climber goddamnit!), is that there is a spot above the fixed ropes that runners usually take because it’s a shortcut, which has a significantly higher risk of rockfall that would travel on people ascending the rope. My buddy was about to go that way because that’s what his GPS track showed. I was staying on trail because that sloped seemed kind of loose, but before the guide spoke up about it, I had no idea there was a steep drop off and a fixed rope below. The only other time I climbed in the Tetons was the grand traverse, so we didn’t descend that way. That’s a valid concern and I believe the guides should place some sort of fence or mark that slope closed, if they notice runners using it so often. Some random runner or a climber is typically not experienced with reading terrain and being aware of those risks, because people in real life are usually much more clueless than those on internet forums. Everyone here seems like an expert. I will try to pass that information on to any runners I know who may try to run the Grand. Guides seemed pretty upset about runners taking that way. Again, valid concern! It should be addressed, no one wants to have a death in their party because some person is trying to cut 10 seconds off their ascent time. However, everyone also has much more exposure to risk from rock fall on trade routes because guides allow total beginners ascent mountains they are (more often than not) not ready to climb independently, which is contributing to how crowded these mountains are and to potential for an accident. Crowds cause rock fall. Personally, I fully support the guides and their clients, but my take is that no one is superior, everyone’s right to have a good day should be respected. It would be fairly simple to get on fastestknowntime.com and write a comment about a dangerous slope above fixed ropes under every route that involves going up and over the Grand. Seems like it’s a easily fixable issue. Actually I will do just that in the next few days.

I simply know that big mountains will attract climbers of all experiences and speeds, and typically avoid trade routes on such peaks, but when I do choose to climb on those popular mountains, I know there could be a total disaster of company around. The stories I heard from friends who work as guides or park rangers on peaks like Denali, Rainier etc, are as tragic as they are comical sometimes. As a long time ER nurse, I simply know how idiotic people can be. Big popular mountains are magnets for all that. However, iconic peaks are considered that for a reason and time to time it is nice to visit them. So I don’t know if my point comes across well, and everything is open to interpretation, but I generally believe we all can find beauty in a beginner ascending the Grand in 3 days with help of a professional guide or someone pushing their limits so hard that they are able to be up and down in a few hours. I personally encourage everyone to approach other climbers with a smile and remember that there will be people who will make you uncomfortable with their lack of experience, as well as with their skills climbing without a rope. Do your best to stay positive and don’t let your desire to go fast get in the way of safety of the other people on the route. Everyone’s life is important. Everyone’s experience is important.  But I gotta say going for a Grand FKT on a Saturday is not a good move…

“looked at the dude waiting to pull his rope and thanked him for being so patient as they passed him. He then looked at us, somewhat perturbed, and asked if we were coming too. We told him we would wait for him to pull his rope.”

It sounds like a fine interaction, not sure what you find so bad in that?

I was simply commenting on the unnecessary rudeness coming from the ego-inflated FKTer. Their communication consisted of them pumping their chest out as they sketchily down-climbed -without any communication- in front of parties taking their time. I understand this probably happens all the time on the grand when it's clear and the conditions are good. 

This person used their "I never come this way!" comment as if to suggest it excused them climbing like an effing clown on the most exposed part of the route,

Slow. The. F@ck. Down. I do not want to be traumatized by some FKTer who botches the icy chimney and falls into the abyss. 

Toby, we were up there on Friday and I remember seeing you and your partner, we crossed paths near the top of the Owen chimney. That sounds like a nice day you two had!

I climb mostly in Montana where we normally don't come across a lot of other parties, so I suppose I was just a little overwhelmed by the busyness compounded by the FKTer.

Chorble on :)

Ned Anderthalwrote:

I was simply commenting on the unnecessary rudeness coming from the ego-inflated FKTer. Their communication consisted of them pumping their chest out as they sketchily down-climbed -without any communication- in front of parties taking their time. I understand this probably happens all the time on the grand when it's clear and the conditions are good. 

This person used their "I never come this way!" comment as if to suggest it excused them climbing like an effing clown on the most exposed part of the route,

Slow. The. F@ck. Down. I do not want to be traumatized by some FKTer who botches the icy chimney and falls into the abyss. 

Toby, we were up there on Friday and I remember seeing you and your partner, we crossed paths near the top of the Owen chimney. That sounds like a nice day you two had!

I climb mostly in Montana where we normally don't come across a lot of other parties, so I suppose I was just a little overwhelmed by the busyness compounded by the FKTer.

Chorble on :)

The OS is a crowded busy place on any day where the conditions are climbable. While this guy legitimately could have been a dick, my experiences up there have been that someone will do something annoying and stupid, and it will feel compounded by the crowdedness, fatigue, and stress from trying to manage the objective danger created by it, that I'm personally experiencing. My take is that it was probably less that he was trying to move fast and more that you're just going to statistically encounter someone being an ass in some way up there. 

I give a lot of credit to the guides working up there. Most of them remain really chill and personable in spite of the crowds. That's usually not the experience in other heavily guided places like Ouray or Hyalite. The only time I saw a guide lose their cool was  near the fixed lines when a runner/speed climber tried to bypass on the adjacent rock and caused rockfall. SirToby's comments regarding the fixed lines are real. This needs to be something that the community becomes vocal about not tolerating. It's negligent in a crowded situation.

Humans cheat...  

SirTobyThe3rd Mwrote:

That’s a valid concern and I believe the guides should place some sort of fence or mark that slope closed, if they notice runners using it so often. Some random runner or a climber is typically not experienced with reading terrain and being aware of those risks, because people in real life are usually much more clueless than those on internet forums. Everyone here seems like an expert. I will try to pass that information on to any runners I know who may try to run the Grand. Guides seemed pretty upset about runners taking that way. Again, valid concern! It should be addressed, no one wants to have a death in their party because some person is trying to cut 10 seconds off their ascent time.

We're not allowed to make changes like that.  That kind of modification needs to be sanctioned by the NPS and likely enacted by a climbing ranger.

At the fixed line below the saddle, I've had a sponsored skier literally grab the fixed line out of my client's hands as I was belaying them up the final bit, because he wanted to downclimb first on an fkt attempt.  It was some of the more blatant assholery I've ever seen in the mountains, so much so that one of his partners felt the need to apologize for him as she went by.  So yeah, fkt-ers can be dicks, but most aren't and I think Vitaliy's point is well taken that we all get to be up there and we need to just be kind, considerate to one another, and work hard to reduce everyone's risk exposure.

This is a very weird complaint. It kind of sounds like you are either not very familiar with the mountain, not familiar with mountain runners, or having a bad day. I myself run and climb the Grand a few times a year and it’s very common the be on the summit with climbers, runners, and people of all experience levels. Sounds like this runner was not an FKT’er (sorry I don’t think this is a real term) as they said they were NOT going for a record. They were probably just moving faster than you and everyone has the right to summit the mountain. It sounds like they were polite and communicative with other parties as well as with you. I will point out it seems he made a good move by getting out of the way of a rope that was being pulled and I’m guessing all three of you were in the chimney at the same time so it was probably best that you moved as well because of rockfall potential. I’m also guessing this was the sergeants chimney, which has a really nice bypass for future reference so you can avoid roped parties for the majority of the segment. I will point out that it sounds like you were down climbing on top of this person who was soloing in an icy chimney, which, no offense, is not demonstrating good mountain etiquette yourself. Especially complaining that they’re now going too slow for you. I’m sure they were just being careful because of the ice. I myself have climbed that chimney with ice and it’s better to take your time than go fast. Again, unsure what the issue is here. Sounds like a normal day on the Grand. 

I hope you have a much more pleasant time the next time you visit the Tetons and encounter no mountain runners.  

Ned Anderthalwrote:

I was simply commenting on the unnecessary rudeness coming from the ego-inflated FKTer. Their communication consisted of them pumping their chest out as they sketchily down-climbed -without any communication- in front of parties taking their time. I understand this probably happens all the time on the grand when it's clear and the conditions are good. 

This person used their "I never come this way!" comment as if to suggest it excused them climbing like an effing clown on the most exposed part of the route,

Slow. The. F@ck. Down. I do not want to be traumatized by some FKTer who botches the icy chimney and falls into the abyss. 

Toby, we were up there on Friday and I remember seeing you and your partner, we crossed paths near the top of the Owen chimney. That sounds like a nice day you two had!

I climb mostly in Montana where we normally don't come across a lot of other parties, so I suppose I was just a little overwhelmed by the busyness compounded by the FKTer.

Chorble on :)

Dang, sorry you had this experience. I'm happy we missed that. Tone, context of communication and body language are hard to interpret accurately and I personally hope that it wasn't as bad as it sounds and maybe you just had a snapshot that doesn't represent that person's character well. 

The recent Grand Teton FKT was denied. I was fairly surprised to see that, but think when it comes to these competitive records and park rules, those things have to be respected. My personal opinion is that when someone is trying to put up a record on such a peak, they need several people who would be positioned in key spots along the route to give others a heads up that there will be someone coming in hot in couple minutes. These people can communicate on simple radios during the event. That sort of thing is interesting to watch and doesn't add much to anyone's day to let an elite athlete fly by. Those who go THAT fast, probably can't pump their chest out too much, can barely breath. :) Their car to car time is about 2.5 hours so it is unlikely they will slow anyone down. It is unfortunate for the guy whose effort was denied. I believe he didn't know that he was breaking a rule of some sort, since he openly wrote about what he did. It is probably a big bummer on a personal level for an athlete to claim a record, have his sponsor North Face post about it online and then to see it be taken away. Kind of wish there was a world where he could have been awarded a variation of a route or something to not just have this amazing effort be crucified. I don't know the guy but he seems like genuinely a good human. Hope his hard work can pay off in the future. 

To jump on the change in topic…

Amazing effort by Sunseri. I do think if the FKT is about a route, you have to do the same route as everyone else for it to “count”. 

Also, not cutting switchbacks is basic hiking etiquette, and a bit of a dick move on such a busy trail, record aside. Such an experienced runner surely should know better. Just my humble opinion as someone who can’t do the Grand in 3 hours :)

He absolutely knows you are not supposed to cut switch backs below tree line. It's posted with signs.  He knew he was cheating but didn't think the rules applied to him because he is so special. That's the core of the issue. That being said I always let the super fast folks play through but it's nice if they are nice. 

Nick Goldsmith · 9 hours ago · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

"He absolutely knows you are not supposed to cut switch backs below tree line. It's posted with signs. He knew he was cheating but didn't think the rules applied to him because he is so special. That's the core of the issue."

Yep.

You don't spend 4 years training and not see the signs (and not understand the Leave No Trace etiquette). And his photographer was with him every step of the way if the photo credits are to be believed. One story even said Sunseri was "unassisted". Not true.

Some guides, including the owner of a local guide service, have used that illegal shortcut. And others. They should use trail cams to catch offenders. It saves very little time for a walker, and not much more for a runner. Equally disturbing are the shortcuts by Spalding Falls on the lower switchbacks through the vegetation. That area used to have more stable slopes and far less erosion. Now it's a total mess. Technically, it may not be an official trail (it's unmarked on maps) but Leave No Trace means stay on the trail in fragile environments. Do what you want in a boulder field.

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SirTobyThe3rd M · 4 days ago · Salt Lake City · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 2,100

"There is a spot above the fixed ropes that runners usually take because it’s a shortcut, which has a significantly higher risk of rockfall that would travel on people ascending the rope."

Going off-trail at that location is a no-no that is well documented if a climber bothered to research the approach. And going anywhere on the saddle over vegetation is also a no-no.

FKTs:

As for the FKTs, so long as it doesn't negatively impact the safety of others, or the environment, they have the right to play on the mountain. It's hard to be super polite when you're running down a mountain and engaged in a dangerous pursuit. Highly focused tunnel vision is a matter of life and death for some runners, even ordinary climbers. But, if you can, be polite to your mountain neighbors. They may be the ones saving your arse when things go sideways.

SirTobyThe3rd Mwrote:

thats what im talking about

It's fun reading the press talk about FKT infractions. This online news outfit in Wyoming had a GPS track of Sunseri's route showing the shortcut in question. And they went on to imply that he cheated both ways which he did not do. Their own image of the GPS track proves this but they ignored that evidence. The press could at least have the decency to confirm their assumptions and check the facts. It's not that hard. They didn't understand his comment because they don't know the route so they jumped to conclusions. Maybe common on Mtn Proj but the press should know better.

There is more to this story too…unfortunately. I was giving the guy the benefit of doubt, but you are right, he has been training on that course for too long to not know that cutting the switchbacks isn’t kosher and must have seen those signs over and over. It’s surprising that one of the better mountain runners has a hard time with a record that was set by someone who wasn’t a pro level mountain runner from what I know. Would be interesting to know more about Andy Anderson’s history in trail running, if he has competed on a University level or ran professionally at some point. To break Killian’s record and be faster than pros that are trying it now, you have to invest serious time into training etc. 

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/park-broadens-grand-teton-speed-record-investigation/article_4e404c8e-7553-11ef-b8d7-bfd08e8fb3b2.html

That pretty much settles it. when the park service cites you the record can not stand.  they are pretty matter of fact about the rules. I remember when i lived out there some sorry soul jumped into a boiling hot spring to try and save his off leash dog. Park service cited him while he was dying in ICU.

Wind Riverwrote:

It's fun reading the press talk about FKT infractions. This online news outfit in Wyoming had a GPS track of Sunseri's route showing the shortcut in question. And they went on to imply that he cheated both ways which he did not do. Their own image of the GPS track proves this but they ignored that evidence. The press could at least have the decency to confirm their assumptions and check the facts. It's not that hard. They didn't understand his comment because they don't know the route so they jumped to conclusions. Maybe common on Mtn Proj but the press should know better.

I think they're referring to cutting switchbacks on the trail above the Meadow.  Looking at the track in the image you posted and comparing it to the trail on Caltopo, it's hard to be sure, but it does look like he skipped some switchbacks on the first set of switchbacks between the Meadow and Spaulding Falls.  (though it could just be poor resolution on that photo or reader error on my end comparing that topo map to the Mapbuilder Topo layer)

Either way, pretty lame.  It's funny because isn't the whole concept of FKT that you have to do the FKT exactly as the previous record was set?  If so, cutting the switchbacks would clearly invalidate the time because you're effectively shortening the racetrack your competing on.  (similar, but slightly different, to Nose speed climbers tactically maintaining specific pieces of tat to make their times shorter)  Cutting those switchbacks is pretty lame, but pretty meh in the grand scheme of terrible things humans can do in the world.  The lamest action is his pretending to the world that he knew it wasn't wrong. (likely on advice from that PR firm) Own and strand by your actions and don't pretend that you were somehow ignorant of something being uncouth when it so obviously is.

Max Tepferwrote:

I think they're referring to cutting switchbacks on the trail above the Meadow.  Looking at the track in the image you posted and comparing it to the trail on Caltopo, it's hard to be sure, but it does look like he skipped some switchbacks on the first set of switchbacks between the Meadow and Spaulding Falls.  (though it could just be poor resolution on that photo or reader error on my end comparing that topo map to the Mapbuilder Topo layer)

Either way, pretty lame.  It's funny because isn't the whole concept of FKT that you have to do the FKT exactly as the previous record was set?  If so, cutting the switchbacks would clearly invalidate the time because you're effectively shortening the racetrack your competing on.  (similar, but slightly different, to Nose speed climbers tactically maintaining specific pieces of tat to make their times shorter)  Cutting those switchbacks is pretty lame, but pretty meh in the grand scheme of terrible things humans can do in the world.  The lamest action is his pretending to the world that he knew it wasn't wrong. (likely on advice from that PR firm) Own and strand by your actions and don't pretend that you were somehow ignorant of something being uncouth when it so obviously is.

Max:

You're correct that it looks like he cut those shortcuts around Spalding Falls. It's the same place Kilian and Jack Kuenzle appeared to cut the trail, and maybe others. However, the reporter wasn't referencing those. Her proof of him doing it "on the way up" is his comment about the descent on the way down. The "last uphill of the route" is, as you know, where the trail goes slightly uphill on a descent right before the shortcut in question. Wyofile corrected the error today. "CORRECTION: This story has been updated to correct the spelling of Andy Carson’s name and to clarify when Sunseri cut the switchback. -Ed. "

FWIW: Cutting the switchbacks around Spalding Falls simply to speed up your travel time is bad form. And possibly illegal. Unmaintained, unmarked and unmapped NPS trails like those to the lower saddle past the 4.1-mile mark (or the one to Delta Lake) may have a different set of legal issues than the legal issues about shortcutting a maintained and NPS-mapped trail.

As for "Cutting those switchbacks is pretty lame, but pretty meh in the grand scheme of terrible things humans can do in the world", that's true but it's often the little things that count the most in life. If everyone didn't care about the park's natural resources, it would be unfortunate.

Wind River, do you actually know that Jack cut switchbacks or are you just making it up for no good reason?
I ran into him today, asked, and he said he didn’t cut the switchbacks. He also is surprised Sunseri cut them since it’s something they talked about between them - people who attempted/attempting the Grand FKT. I guess it was sort of like common knowledge for people going for speed up there that cutting those switchbacks could cause a shitstorm.

In any case, I feel like it’s important to not spread false rumors. 

I thought those short cuts down low that cut the switchbacks were for Jackson locals only?