Newly trad-curious - hire a guide in the Red or the New?

Got to do a trip out west and it sparked my interest in trad.  I've assembled some ancient camalots and am resisting the urge to sweet-talk my gym partner into just belaying me up some 5.easy with the confidence of a man who's watched several Youtube videos on the subject, and instead am hoping to circumvent both my own hubris and my partner's inability to schedule reliably and hire a guide

Any recs for the Red or the New?  I'm equidistant

Mostly hoping for someone to offer some hands-on instructions, critique my placements, etc

If you enjoy endless researching and teaching yourself I don’t think learning trad on your own is an awful idea. Start by just practicing anchors on the ground, and learn a variety of techniques. Then find someone who leads trad to follow, and eventually you’ll know when it’s time to lead. Guides are great too though

Unless you're hellbent on hiring a guide you can accomplish your goals by finding an experienced trad climber (or several) to climb with here on MP or one of the many FB groups. I second everything Chandler said and walking the base of crags practicing placements is where I start all trad novices. Not just practicing how to make a good placement but how to remove them as well. I support your hubris and know you'll do great!

Youtube videos wont tell you if your placement looks like shit and wont hold. So an expierenced partner or a guide is likley a good idea. Or you go deeper into the rabbit hole and start clogging aid to learn how to palce gear...

Appreciate the advice

I guess my thinking is that being 4 hours from the crag, and asking for a lot of labor, it might be more straightforward to just book something

But if there's a good shot of finding a trad dad who might take payment in my charming banter and gas/dinner/beer, I'll try that route. 

Definitely into making the most of books and videos, which is how I approached my first multi-pitch, but the nuances of good and bad placements in various rock types give me pause. 

if you think you’re getting into this to climb multi-pitch routes out west, don’t go to the New/Red but drive another 90 minutes from columbus OH to seneca rocks.

hiring a guide service there for a weekend will kill a ton of birds with one stone because you’ll get two days to do everything; learn how to place gear, build anchors, multi-pitch transitions, routefinding, efficient rappelling, etc. 

once you do that, then go out and find partners at the red (easy AF) and you’ll gradually get good

edit: plus you’ll get to tag a fun summit on the way

Casey Fentonwrote:

if you think you’re getting into this to climb multi-pitch routes out west, don’t go to the New/Red but drive another 90 minutes from columbus OH to seneca rocks.

hiring a guide service there for a weekend will kill a ton of birds with one stone because you’ll get two days to do everything; learn how to place gear, build anchors, multi-pitch transitions, routefinding, efficient rappelling, etc. 

once you do that, then go out and find partners at the red (easy AF) and you’ll gradually get good

edit: plus you’ll get to tag a fun summit on the way

This is a great idea! I've done some sport multipitch and am comfortable with the concepts (anchors, transitions, rope management, have read Long and Kirkpatrick, etc) but it sounds like Seneca might be more in alignment with my goals.

Patrick Hwrote:

This is a great idea! I've done some sport multipitch and am comfortable with the concepts (anchors, transitions, rope management, have read Long and Kirkpatrick, etc) but it sounds like Seneca might be more in alignment with my goals.

yep and (saying this as a amga single pitch instructor myself), the overall experience with a AMGA rock guide/asst rock guide/MPI on seneca vs a day with a SPI at the red is remarkably different for what might be similar prices

The best thing you can do---if it is possible---is to spend a season following a competent trad climber.  There's vastly more to trad leading than whether or not a cam is well-placed.  Arranging rope paths, route-finding, protecting the second, using redundancy when necessary but not overdoing it, and acquiring mental attitudes that involve undoing some aspects of sport-climbing approaches.

Second best and very worthwhile is some time out with an experienced guide.   I'd have a discussion with them ahead of time about what type of instruction they are going to provide.  Mock leading  and upper-belayed aid climbing are things that should be considered.

I would caution you about learning to lead by watching what a guide does.  They are usually climbing way below their limits on routes they know every inch of in their sleep.  This leads to smoothness, speed, and minimal protection choices that is not in any way a model for how to approach your own leading. You won't see any of the hesitations, the fiddling with gear, the moving up and backing down, that are more characteristic of what you should be doing.

Of course, at the end of the day, most learning is going to be on the job.  Many of us are self-taught, but never forget that you aren't hearing from the folks who went the self-taught route and didn't make it, so the encouragements are coming from a highly biased sample.  Yes, you can certainly do it all yourself, provided that you are ok with the increased risks you'll be taking (and make no mistake---those risks are real and possibly fatal).

I started trad climbing recently and while ideally I'd have a mentor to follow, that wasn't in the cards. I setup a 3 day course with a solid guiding/climbing school (IMCS in my case) with the goal of learning trad leading. We went soup to nuts on all the foundations I'd need to understand (nutcraft, anchors, some self-rescue, transitions, decision making, bailing, cams vs. nuts etc. etc.), which given the fact I'm still a bit of a gumby was fantastic. I did a bunch of small leads with the guide on rappel next to me critiquing every placement, which was invaluable (the guide did not lead anything for us, just threw down some safety top ropes to back things up).

I've since gotten to observe others trad climbing in more popular locales and I'm confident saying this gave me a much more solid foundation and set of skills than many I've observed. Learning the right way to do things and why rather than having to unlearn bad habits is a preference for me given my limited time available. 

Did I learn everything possible about trad? Heck no. I still learn every time I'm out. Do I feel I have a solid understanding to keep myself and climbing partners safe and efficient? Absolutely. 

rgoldwrote:

The best thing you can do---if it is possible---is to spend a season following a competent trad climber.  There's vastly more to trad leading than whether or not a cam is well-placed.  Arranging rope paths, route-finding, protecting the second, using redundancy when necessary but not overdoing it, and acquiring mental attitudes that involve undoing some aspects of sport-climbing approaches.

Second best and very worthwhile is some time out with an experienced guide.   I'd have a discussion with them ahead of time about what type of instruction they are going to provide.  Mock leading  and upper-belayed aid climbing are things that should be considered.

I would caution you about learning to lead by watching what a guide does.  They are usually climbing way below their limits on routes they know every inch of in their sleep.  This leads to smoothness, speed, and minimal protection choices that is not in any way a model for how to approach your own leading. You won't see any of the hesitations, the fiddling with gear, the moving up and backing down, that are more characteristic of what you should be doing.

Of course, at the end of the day, most learning is going to be on the job.  Many of us are self-taught, but never forget that you aren't hearing from the folks who went the self-taught route and didn't make it, so the encouragements are coming from a highly biased sample.  Yes, you can certainly do it all yourself, provided that you are ok with the increased risks you'll be taking (and make no mistake---those risks are real and possibly fatal).

Much appreciated and words of caution well-heeded.