Are rescue skills necessary?

Professor Watermelonwrote:

Not having self rescue skills appropriate to the terrain is irresponsible.  

Asking someone else to risk their life to bail us out for our decision making and lack of preparedness at something we chose to do is immoral. 

If you don't want to take responsibility for your adventure, hire a guide, or go zip lining. 

Professor Watermelon:  Meh.  Sounds like 'mansplaining' to me.  :)

I mean, I agree about striving to have skills appropriate for the terrain. 

But I could never bring myself to tell someone who somehow has gotten in over there heads that they are immoral if they call for help.

rgoldwrote:

If, on the other hand, retreat is a viable alternative, then it is usually going to be the best option.  For this, the rescuer has to be familiar with the tandem rappel (not simul-rapping!), in which both climbers are attached to a single rappel device.

This is the one technique that I have had to use in an actual rescue situation and I very much recommend everyone learn how to do. You can practice with a weighted bag. 

If you climb trad long enough, the shit is going to hit the fan.   Book, video, and guide course (two days with Marc Chauvin) knowledge is good; and I have greatly benefitted from all three.  But without routine rainy day or end of a cragging day practice, they will not be worth much.  Read my friend Jason's Antin's posts above.  Practice, from my personal experience, is essential.

Read books and practice this stuff! Rainy days and rest days are great for self rescue practice. Find a tree.

True Story: Yosemite, July, 2010, 6 PM, mid nineties and hot, out of water for hours. No one around, no cell service, too high to call for help. Our party of 3 were bailing off the top of the first pitch of Sons of Yesterday. The rap goes down diagonally to the right to the top anchors on the 3 pitch Serenity Crack.

Our partner rapped off on our two 60 meter ropes, promising to swing climbers right to access the anchors.

15 minutes go by as we nod off in the heat. I look over at L., "She should be off by now, something is wrong."

L. : "Ropes are still loaded, I'll tie some slings together and short rope down to where I can see her."

A few minutes later: "She's straight below us hanging in mid air over the roof. She is at the knots. She can't prusik up."

Our partner told us later that she had read you can prusik up on skinny slings, but had not practiced it.

I looked at L. : "Do you remember how to do a Z pulley?"

"Maybe? But we don't have any rope, she's using it all on the rappel, and it's too tight to pull up due to friction over the domed roof."

I'll leave you to solve that self rescue situation. We got her up, but it took hours.

Bill Lawrywrote:

Professor Watermelon:  Meh.  Sounds like 'mansplaining' to me.  :)

I mean, I agree about striving to have skills appropriate for the terrain. 

But I could never bring myself to tell someone who somehow has gotten in over there heads that they are immoral if they call for help.

Calling for help if you need it is fine.  Getting into a situation where you need help because you have no skills, but knew you could have them if you wanted them is problematic.

Thanks for the reminder. I used to teach all of this stuff. It is no longer front and center in my brain and needs refreshment.

Use (Practice) it or lose it.

Professor Watermelonwrote:

Calling for help if you need it is fine.  Getting into a situation where you need help because you have no skills, but knew you could have them if you wanted them is problematic.

Sure. Glad to hear it. 

I just would be surprised if folks are signing onto this: "Asking someone else to risk their life to bail us out for our decision making and lack of preparedness at something we chose to do is immoral."  Maybe I just missed some important context upthread.

Mark Websterwrote:

I'll leave you to solve that self rescue situation. We got her up, but it took hours.

Here's my first try...

With communication...It should be enough to haul one strand of the rappel line with a 3-1 right? The climber should be able to lock off that strand (or worst case come tight against the stopper knot and be hauled by that, terrifying though). Then when slack is generated, they can pull it through the other slot and lock it off while you reset the haul at the belay.

Without communication...guess you have to haul both strands as one, using prusiks for progress capture and hauling...yikes. should help with 2 of you at the belay though.

A Dyurrite/Arapiles guide (who was a smaller person and so definitely prefered the higher mechanical advantage) taught me a practical 5-1 haul that I've totally forgotten, which was supposedly much much better for winching "hesitant" clients. Should probably look that up again.

Ahhh found them! From the depths of the climbing internet of the 2000s...

9-1 (z drag on top of a z-drag) that is more like 5-1 in reality with friction.

Sam Mwrote:

Ahhh found them! From the depths of the climbing internet of the 2000s...

9-1 (z drag on top of a z-drag) that is more like 5-1 in reality with friction.

5-1 with only three turns of rope.

I don't think that "practical 5:1 haul" is even remotely practical unless you are carrying pulleys to rig it with.  If you rig with carabiners, the friction losses leave you with either 1.6:1 if your carabiners have 50% efficiency or 2.5:1 if your carabiners have 67% efficiency.  (I'm seeing more and more tests suggesting 50% efficiency).  If there is any additional friction in the system, you might easily end up with no mechanical advantage. Plus you are paying a severe progress penalty with a 5:1 system.  You have to haul up 5 feet of rope for every foot of progress and that's assuming perfect ratchet setup that doesn't let back any of the stroke.  So let's say you have the good carabiners and you have to raise someone fifteen feet.  That will require pulling 75 feet of rope, which will require at least 37 72-lb pulls (assuming you've got the two prussiks perfectly positioned.  Then there's the fact that your 180 lb climber

The impracticality of this in most real-life situations is part of what I meant by self-rescue techniques being oversold.  A person counting on this 5:1 to work might waste hours and exhaust themselves without a.good outcome.

rgoldwrote:

I don't think that "practical 5:1 haul" is even remotely practical unless you are carrying pulleys to rig it with.  If you rig with carabiners, the friction losses leave you with either 1.6:1 if your carabiners have 50% efficiency or 2.5:1 if your carabiners have 67% efficiency.  (I'm seeing more and more tests suggesting 50% efficiency).  If there is any additional friction in the system, you might easily end up with no mechanical advantage. Plus you are paying a severe progress penalty with a 5:1 system.  You have to haul up 5 feet of rope for every foot of progress and that's assuming perfect ratchet setup that doesn't let back any of the stroke.  So let's say you have the good carabiners and you have to raise someone fifteen feet.  That will require pulling 75 feet of rope, which will require at least 37 72-lb pulls (assuming you've got the two prussiks perfectly positioned.  Then there's the fact that your 180 lb climber

The impracticality of this in most real-life situations is part of what I meant by self-rescue techniques being oversold.  A person counting on this 5:1 to work might waste hours and exhaust themselves without a.good outcome.

To be clear, are you talking about the first rig, the 9-1 with 4 carabiners, or the second rig, the 5-1 with 3 carabiners?

The person that claimed to actually do the first 9-1 rig regularly while guiding, I believe them. They were a Natimuk resident at the base of Mt Arapiles who climbed an absolute shit ton. They said they developed themselves it organically after actually finding z-drags just weren't enough in real life.

The consensus on the original thread was that yes, the efficiency would drop it to probably half of the theoretical advantage, and yes it was reported that it was indeed an awful lot of rope to pull. But they were sure could actually pull it (and haul a schoolkid up like a sack of potatoes).

The second one rig the 5-1, that guy was a bit of a troll (you might tell from the "humour") I can believe that one is not actually practical.

Sam Mwrote:

To be clear, are you talking about the first rig, the 9-1 with 4 carabiners, or the second rig, the 5-1 with 3 carabiners?

The person that claimed to actually do the first 9-1 rig regularly while guiding, I believe them. They were a Natimuk resident at the base of Mt Arapiles who climbed an absolute shit ton. They said they developed themselves it organically after actually finding z-drags just weren't enough in real life.

The consensus on the original thread was that yes, the efficiency would drop it to probably half of the theoretical advantage, and yes it was reported that it was indeed an awful lot of rope to pull. But they were sure could actually pull it (and haul a schoolkid up like a sack of potatoes).

The second one rig the 5-1, that guy was a bit of a troll (you might tell from the "humour") I can believe that one is not actually practical.

I think I made it pretty clear it was the 5:1.  I can't decipher the 9:1 diagram so can't compute the real-world MA for that, but I'm extremely skeptical that it could have more than very rare applications for rock pitches, even if you carry a full complement of pulleys for it.

I also think a guide who is using 9:1 systems to haul clients needs some (re)training to point him in the direction of selecting more appropriate routes for his clients.

rgoldwrote:

I also think a guide who is using 9:1 systems to haul clients needs some (re)training to point him in the direction of selecting more appropriate routes for his clients.

Absolutely spot on. 

A simple lesson in French free and basic aid climbing almost completely negates the necessity to know anything about self-rescue haul systems.

If your partner is so incapacitated they can’t French free or aid, you’re likely trying to lower them to a ledge and scram to get help as quickly as possible. 

Mark Websterwrote:

Read books and practice this stuff! Rainy days and rest days are great for self rescue practice. Find a tree.

True Story: Yosemite, July, 2010, 6 PM, mid nineties and hot, out of water for hours. No one around, no cell service, too high to call for help. Our party of 3 were bailing off the top of the first pitch of Sons of Yesterday. The rap goes down diagonally to the right to the top anchors on the 3 pitch Serenity Crack.

Our partner rapped off on our two 60 meter ropes, promising to swing climbers right to access the anchors.

15 minutes go by as we nod off in the heat. I look over at L., "She should be off by now, something is wrong."

L. : "Ropes are still loaded, I'll tie some slings together and short rope down to where I can see her."

A few minutes later: "She's straight below us hanging in mid air over the roof. She is at the knots. She can't prusik up."

Our partner told us later that she had read you can prusik up on skinny slings, but had not practiced it.

I looked at L. : "Do you remember how to do a Z pulley?"

"Maybe? But we don't have any rope, she's using it all on the rappel, and it's too tight to pull up due to friction over the domed roof."

I'll leave you to solve that self rescue situation. We got her up, but it took hours.

Down prussik the rap ropes to the lip, then rig an anchor on the ropes using a pair of prussiks. Build a block and tackle at the lip with a cord, then haul to generate slack in the rap ropes. Put a progress capture on at least one of the rap ropes, and then either continue with the block/tackle or and swap to a direct haul on the rap ropes. Get your partner to the lip or at least close enough to coach them through getting some prussiks on the rope to ascend. Reconsider which partner goes first on the next rappel...

rgoldwrote:

I also think a guide who is using 9:1 systems to haul clients needs some (re)training to point him in the direction of selecting more appropriate routes for his clients.

I think guides do their best to vet clients to make sure they are compatible with the route but, just like new partners IRL, people can misrepresent their experience and skill sets. Then they gotta do what they gotta do.

My husband told me the story of a big weight-heavy client who got up to a certain point, freaked out, and just absolutely refused to move. He had to escape the belay, go down to the client, and blah blah blah to get back down.  Can’t remember where this was, a trade route somewhere.

phylp phylpwrote:

I think guides do their best to vet clients to make sure they are compatible with the route but, just like new partners IRL, people can misrepresent their experience and skill sets. Then they gotta do what they gotta do.

My husband told me the story of a big weight-heavy client who got up to a certain point, freaked out, and just absolutely refused to move. He had to escape the belay, go down to the client, and blah blah blah to get back down.  Can’t remember where this was, a trade route somewhere.

Yes of course.  I guided my way through grad school so have quite a bit of experience in that regard, some of it identical to your husband's.  But your husband did not rig a 9:1 and haul that heavy client up the pitch. He went down, and that's what I did too if a pep talk didn't work.  Now if the guide takes a client they know little or nothing about on a route where the client can end up hanging and can't be lowered---i.e exposes the client to a situation in which they have to be hauled---then that is, in my opinion, a serious guiding error and not an argument for fancy hauling techniques that have a poor chance of working anyway. 

Speaking of having expectations that turned out to be wrong, I 'm reminded of a day I went out with someone in the Gunks for their first climb. (I should say that I was philosophically opposed to a short introductory top-rope experience and felt that the first climb should be an easy multipitch climb to the top; something the Gunks has good examples of.  "Multipitch" in the Gunks meant three shortish pitches. This point of view is so out of step with conventional practice that nowadays it seems borderline nutty.) Anyway, after some introductory explanations on the carriage road, we head up the boulder field to the cliff.  In those days, there were no curated trails through the boulder field, so the experience was a little more scrambly rather than the current march up some stone steps. Having navigated the boulders, we arrived at the base of the cliff.  My client was nearly ecstatic.  [Apparently the correct term now is not "client" but "guest."  We could have a discussion about which designation is more accurate, but in any case at the time of these events, guides had clients and hotels had guests.]

Client: "That was fantastic! Thank you so much for such a memorable experience!"

Guide: "Um...er...this is where the climbing starts...

Client: [Looking up at the cliff above in horror] "Are you out of your fucking mind!?!"

Right---so much for climbing. I offered some additional trips up other parts of the boulder field and/or a hike to Skytop with a trip up the Crevice, but my client was more than satisfied and insisted on an immediate return to the Brauhaus for whatever palliative effects some alcohol would provide.

L and I both had the standard 18 feet of 6 mil for building anchors. We tied them together to make a z-pulley. But it wasn't enough. I short roped with slings out to the edge and brute force lifted our stranded partner with assistance from the mickey mouse z-pulley. We got about a foot each time before having to reset the z-pulley. In our defense, our partner was preggers so it impacted her normally clear thinking. 

After half an hour of lifting, suddenly the rope became unweighted. We thought she had fallen off the ends and died. But she had simply found a ledge to stand on briefly. After another half an hour we had enough climbing rope to switch to a real z-pulley and got more efficient.  After that day she practiced prusiking with normal 6mil cord. And I started carrying 50 feet of 6mil cordelette. Later shortened to 30 feet.

Final cap on that long day was getting our ropes stuck at 1AM on the last rap of Serenity. I had to prusik up 60 meters to free the line. Another lesson learned: Always do a test pull before the last person raps off. It's likely you may need to pull the knot down to clear any cracks near the anchor before heading down.

Hahaha, Rich - great story!

phylp phylpwrote:

Hahaha, Rich - great story!

Agreed! Amazing what brute force will do in the beginning. Ha ha.

Always do a test pull before the last person raps off. It's likely you may need to pull the knot down to clear any cracks near the anchor before heading down.

Man, you know it. I had to prussik up stuck rappel lines on Zowie in graupel once because the joining knot got stuck on a crack near the edge of the lip.