New Edelrid Belay Device the " Pinch"

ELAwrote:

 - and this just seems way too easy to unweight and disengage, especially when the UIAA has advocated for more two or three-step locking sequences for belay carabiners. [...]

Edelrid writes in the YouTube comments: 

The opening mechanism requires a multiway action: swing open the side plate whilst pushing the button at the same time. Furthermore, the geometry of the side plates prevents from accidentally opening the device under load even if you manage to press the button. You can optionally use a carabiner as a backup using direct attachment method, or chose the conventional method using a locking carabiner. Of course, the device is field- and lab for both attachment methods. Each of the methods can have its advantage, and since the PINCH offers both, it is up to the user to decide whether the direct attachment or the conventional method suits best. Check out our tutorial video on basic functions of the PINCH here: youtube.com/watch?v=T0vVi-0…;

He pushes the button to open it.

This video is the only other demonstration of an ABD used in FPLB that I’m aware of, but it’s worth noting that the device doesn’t operate with a spring loaded cam that could become disengaged by the device getting pinched into the rock, and the instructional booklet doesn’t have any mention of using it as an ABD in FPLB

https://youtu.be/l6ysWgKjnlY?si=Q0h9Vf2qTu3_Ghv3

It does appear that Edelrid approves the Pinch for FPLBs in the manual.

As well as the instructional video

Is this the first ABD that officially supports this technique? As a light belayer, I'm very interested in this...

Perry Hwrote:

It does appear that Edelrid approves the Pinch for FPLBs in the manual.

As well as the instructional video

Is this the first ABD that officially supports this technique? As a light belayer, I'm very interested in this...

I believe the alpine up is certified by CT for FPLB

ELAwrote:

The admission, that an earlier version had such a failsafe mechanism, but was dismissed as being "too complicated," is sobering.
I can't imagine this device will not be recalled, and I hope there will be no tragic incidents, especially given the evidence that will support design negligence.

So any company selling single or double action carabiners is engaging in design negligence? This is a bit of a hard take.

You're still able to use a carabiner to attach the device, negating any of these concerns.

After another few days outside with the device and on some thicker, dirtier ropes I'm less impressed. It was very touchy with an older 9.5 mammut to the point that I switched back to a grigri. I started getting in the habit of holding down the cam when quickly paying slack. I still love the stability of the direct attachment but... I'm wanting to try the neox now.

Micah Hooverwrote:

So is any company selling single or double action carabiners engaging in design negligence? This is a bit of a hard take.

You're still able to use a carabiner to attach the device, negating any of these concerns.

After another few days outside with the device and on some thicker, dirtier ropes I'm less impressed. It was very touchy with an older 9.5 mammut to the point that I switched back to a grigri. I started getting in the habit of holding down the cam when quickly paying slack. I still love the stability of the direct attachment but... I'm wanting to try the neox now.

I am looking forward to the device hoping it will work better on thinner ropes (8.6mm-6.9mm).  I no longer use any thicker ropes and am disappointed in how poorly most belay devices work on thin ropes.

Micah Hooverwrote:

After another few days outside with the device and on some thicker, dirtier ropes I'm less impressed. It was very touchy with an older 9.5 mammut to the point that I switched back to a grigri. I started getting in the habit of holding down the cam when quickly paying slack. I still love the stability of the direct attachment but... I'm wanting to try the neox now.

I am not surprised to hear this. I had the same issue with my Beal Birdie that caused me to toss it in the gear pile for teaching purposes only. I never really thought it could be a grigri replacement but I was more interested in the rope access certification anyway.

Thomas Worshamwrote:

I believe the alpine up is certified by CT for FPLB

So conventional wisdom thus far seems to say that ABDs are unsuitable for a fixed point belay due to lack of travel and the subsequent increase of forces. Do the CT or Pinch slip more than say, a GriGri? What distinguishes them from a traditional ABD such that it’s officially approved by the manufacturer? Is this the first generation of ABDs that can safely be used with fixed point belays? It seems like this would be significantly simpler than hybrid techniques and obviate the need for gloves on a munter, while still giving you the security of an ABD. The downside is a hard catch, but I generally would prefer the certainty of a catch in the event of an FF2 vs a soft catch. Is there something I’m missing?

I’d love to hear what Derek DeBruin thinks given his testing on the grigri.

Micah Hooverwrote:

So any company selling single or double action carabiners is engaging in design negligence? This is a bit of a hard take.

You're still able to use a carabiner to attach the device, negating any of these concerns.

After another few days outside with the device and on some thicker, dirtier ropes I'm less impressed. It was very touchy with an older 9.5 mammut to the point that I switched back to a grigri. I started getting in the habit of holding down the cam when quickly paying slack. I still love the stability of the direct attachment but... I'm wanting to try the neox now.

 There are several related new comments as well, but to your point:
Design negligence refers to product defects or failure, in its intended use. Standard carabiners can open, and so are not recommended for belaying, because that exceeds the intended use, much the same way triblocs and other microtraction devices are not designed for security when speed simulclimbing a wall.
My very first gear purchase was a steel oval carabiner and brake bar; I used this and did not die, but the Yosemite method of stacking biners with gates opposed became the better standard soon thereafter. Other devices like the figure 8 were popular for a while, but once belay devices from the Sticht plate, to the ATC, evolved, both belaying and rappelling became more standardized, and in the process, locking carabiners just became the norm.
Many experiences with screwgates, where vibration or rope contact has unscrewed the gate barrel, led to
development of autolocking carabiners, as strongly advised for belaying and rappelling, because they require two or more distinct steps to open, and because they lock automatically when the gate is released. Autobelay systems in many gyms use a triple-locking carabiner that must be slid, rotated, and then pushed to open, further reducing the chances of an inadvertent detachment. Will Gadd's close call with a screwgate opening, leaving him hanging from just the gate tooth in his grigri, should be enough incentive for everyone to reassess the systems they stake their lives to.
Many refinements in design or technique have come out of actual field experience, from how back-clipping can
unclip in a fall, to rope oscillation under load opening a carabiner(and the development of wiregates). Refinements like stops or bars to reduce carabiner rotation and cross-loading are not mandated, but strongly advised for belaying, as well.
The fact that a normal carabiner attachment may obviate the potential for Pinch detachment as I described, is irrelevant, when the product specs do not suggest this is necessary. If I were an owner, and wished to use the Pinch directly clipped to a belay loop, I would definitely clip another carabiner into the eye to block any potential for opening. As the primary belaying functions otherwise seem to follow the original grigri patent, and others here aren't finding improvements there, I'd look at other options; I find the Birdie to feed smoother than a grigri, and tho heavier, its all metal bombproof heft might serve better in a fight; the next-generation Neox may solve the main annoyance, of feeding slack to a leader. Its braking mode is very much akin to the ATC in practice, then autolocking so user errors may be minimized. No device is perfect, and learning their weaknesses and how to avoid them is preferable to blindly trusting it, or the manufacturers.
A final note, the last decade of testing generally confirms the fallacies in thinking about a user managed "dynamic belay," and drop tests by Petzl and others show only two methods can actually catch a factor two fall: the grigri(and its clones), and the good old Munter Hitch. Belayers using ATC or non-autolocking means will drop the weight/climber, something anyone belaying multipitch outdoors should examine carefully.

The pinch requires you to press a button to unlock it. It's a locking attachment, you could even say auto-locking attachment.

Perry Hwrote:

So conventional wisdom thus far seems to say that ABDs are unsuitable for a fixed point belay due to lack of travel and the subsequent increase of forces. Do the CT or Pinch slip more than say, a GriGri? What distinguishes them from a traditional ABD such that it’s officially approved by the manufacturer? Is this the first generation of ABDs that can safely be used with fixed point belays? It seems like this would be significantly simpler than hybrid techniques and obviate the need for gloves on a munter, while still giving you the security of an ABD. The downside is a hard catch, but I generally would prefer the certainty of a catch in the event of an FF2 vs a soft catch. Is there something I’m missing?

I’d love to hear what Derek DeBruin thinks given his testing on the grigri.

I have no answers for your questions. If you are curious about the internal certifications a manufacturer gives their equipment, I suggest reviewing the technical inserts that are provided with purchase that demonstrate safe and approved use of the equipment. I do not own an Alpine up, nor do I foresee purchasing one. My response is limited to reading the technical insert for the alpine up and watching the CT demonstration video that shows use with FPLB.

ELAwrote:

 

Why stop at double action? Why triple?

My point is that there's always a trade between safety and convivence. This is an eternal argument with no possible winner as it's based on personal risk tolerance. That's a good thing, I don't need to change anyone's mind. Everyone can make their own considerations and select equipment accordingly.

Edelrid made it painstakingly clear why they consider this device to be safe, why a triple action safety wasn't selected, and the thought process behind that. To accuse them of design negligence while overlooking the clear considerations they've made towards safety, while never yourself even handling the device is disingenuous at least.

We seem to often forget the people designing this equipment (and climbing gear in general) received years of feedback from climbers and industry rope technicians, and I'm going on a limb here but I wager a critical feature they all had in mind was "is this thing likely to kill me or my partner?"

Also, please find some paragraphs. That was painful to parse out.

For those interested, I also got some time in this weekend with a Neox. As excited as I was for the pinch, the Neox is simply better for my use case.

Micah Hoover wrote: 

"Why stop at double action? Why triple?"   - In autobelays, because gym insurers are demanding it; in personal use, because the minor inconvenience is offset against potential death.

"Edelrid made it painstakingly clear why they consider this device to be safe, why a triple action safety wasn't selected, and the thought process behind that."   - And anyone who is satisfied with that, and finds the device appealing, is welcome to use one; I've retired many things, including my favorite Cinch belay device, out of concerns for safety, and many were never recalled, just outmoded.

"Also, please find some paragraphs. That was painful to parse out."   - LOL If you care to troubleshoot my web browser to correct its tendency to misalign text after my typing was fine, I welcome your input. As this is an informational blog site, not an artistic venue, I trust readers are capable of tolerating a skip, gap, or glitch; if reading across two gaps caused you so much pain and suffering, well, be thankful you haven't had a belayer drop you because of equipment failure. For that matter, I figured out what you meant by "convivence" without complaining.  As to tradeoffs between safety and convenience, there may be "no possible winner as it's based on personal risk tolerance," but there may certainly be possible losers. "Personal risk tolerance" is a sort of absurdist abstraction; in the moment, you either trust what is in front of you enough, or you don't. You go with it, or modify it. And most importantly, a terminally inadequate anchor does not care if you "tolerate" it; it is not offended, and will fail regardless of your opinion of it. FWIW, I have a bet riding on your reply.

ELAwrote:

 FWIW, I have a bet riding on your reply.

Aw man we were having fun, why'd you have to make it weird?

New TPS video from me with Edelgrid Pinch out now, and also with GriGri+ on same system. youtu.be/8-hwE8r3stc

ELAwrote:

"No device is perfect, and learning their weaknesses and how to avoid them is preferable to blindly trusting it, or the manufacturers.
A final note, the last decade of testing generally confirms the fallacies in thinking about a user managed "dynamic belay," and drop tests by Petzl and others show only two methods can actually catch a factor two fall: the grigri(and its clones), and the good old Munter Hitch. Belayers using ATC or non-autolocking means will drop the weight/climber, something anyone belaying multipitch outdoors should examine carefully."

Do you have any links/references to these tests?

A Canadian climbing shop I follow posted on insta this morning that they’ve got the pinch in stock. Anyone know of any available in the us yet?

I feel like if Oliund doesn't have it no one does.  At least thats the past experiences with these releases.  

I'll sell mine for $120 shipped, used maybe 5 times.

Micah Hooverwrote:

I'll sell mine for $120 shipped, used maybe 5 times.

Where did you get yours?