What to know before bringing friends out

Hi, 

I have traded for a few months. And I know basic things for when things go well, that is build gear anchor, tree anchor, rappelling. But I'd like to learn more rescuing technique/ other general techniques to take out less experienced friend to follow on trad. What other techniques I should have in my arsenal? Here are a few things I know

1. rope ascension, when I rap over the rap bolt.
2. 3-1 and 5-1 hauling, when follower falls on an overhang.
3. lowering follower on ATC
4. simul rap

Thank you.

Tri Nguyenwrote:

Hi, 

I have traded for a few months. 

Do you mean "traded"? What did you trade?

Frank cut the crap. You know what Tri meant.

Tri, you got plenty of background to take out beginners. Just be honest with them about your experience level, and pick routes they/you won't epic on. Encourage them to ask you questions about what you are doing and (more importantly) why. If you can't give them a satisfactory answer, don't get grumpy, they just helped you make yourself a better climber by figuring out that you have a gap in your knowledge you need to address.

Very important: For lines that are going to be at all challenging to you, go with a partner of equal or greater experience.

Pick easy routes.

Thank you Eric. I really appreciate your advice on taking on easy routes, I will stick to that.

But is there any rescue technique that I should know of? I don't know what I don't know, so I'm not sure if I'm missing anything critical, and obviously I can't learn everything a guide knows realistically.

Tri Nguyenwrote:

Hi, 

I have traded for a few months. And I know basic things for when things go well, that is build gear anchor, tree anchor, rappelling. But I'd like to learn more rescuing technique/ other general techniques to take out less experienced friend to follow on trad. What other techniques I should have in my arsenal? Here are a few things I know

1. rope ascension, when I rap over the rap bolt.
2. 3-1 and 5-1 hauling, when follower falls on an overhang.
3. lowering follower on ATC
4. simul rap

Thank you.

1.  Rope ascension is a good skill to know, and bonus points for being able to do it without specialty gear, and with the carabiners, slings, and/or cord you normally carry on you. 

2.  I don't know of anyone that's successfully hauled anyone that's completely dead weight over a roof or pronounced overhanging portion of a climb.  Not to say it's impossible, it's definitely possible, but I think your first step to getting out of this situation is to select your partners in conjunction with the route carefully.  The second thing I'd suggest before doing a deep dive on mechanical advantage systems, especially hasty ones, is to make sure your follower knows number 1.  This will save you oceans of time, effort and hurt feelings.

3. I'm assuming from context that you mean lowering a follower that's in "guide mode" on an ATC that's directly on the anchor.  I could explain it in a paragraph, but this will likely do a much more efficient and complete job: Lowering in guide mode

4.  If you're referring to "bringing friends out" as bringing beginners out, I'd advise against simul-rapping unless it's absolutely needed.  I can think of few scenarios where it is- dangerous impending weather is one of them.  So, by all means, learn it, but if you're climbing with beginners, I'd stick to single-pitch environments until they build up enough familiarity and skills to make YOU confident that you won't epic on something- even if it's easy.  For a rappelling skill that's probably just as important if not more than simul-rapping is tandem rappelling.

As far as other skills, one of the most important skills if you're going to be the person that takes on the responsibility of safety for others in a vertical environment, is assessing what these people know and what they're capable of so that you keep your days filled with fun and devoid of injury and stress.  Have fun out there, and always err on the side of caution and don't take anything for granted.

I would much rather the follower know how to rappel and ascend a rope on their own than to know how to set up 5/1 hauling systems.

For your own sake, place easy to clean gear because they don't have experience cleaning (I assume). Don't sour a friendship because they got half your rack stuck. 

Like others said, pick a route you're sure y'all can climb without a problem. Step one of self rescue is act and make decisions that reduce the need for it. Might want to consider leaving extra gear with slings in the rock for them to aid up, just in case.

Have your own patience ready when they take ages to do things simple to you because they lack that experience. And the patience, as said above, to explain everything you're doing. Be on your toes because of that inexperience. I'm going to look more carefully at a gumby friends -everything- than a regular partner. 

Not a rescue trick but could definitely prevent one: learn to saddlebag ropes effectively (clear your gear loop(s), feed off the top of the stack). Whether it’s windy, there’s people below, or there’s terrain the rope could snag on.

Tri Nguyenwrote:

Hi, 

I have traded for a few months.

1.  Don’t say this.  Trading is not a thing. Not to mention a few months is probably nowhere near enough experience to keep yourself safe let alone safely guide beginners.

     ,3-1 and 5-1 hauling, when follower falls on an overhan

2.  Don’t put a beginner in this situation.  If you do, you exercised poor judgement by putting a beginner in this situation.  And hauling is much harder in reality.  

.lowering follower on ATC

3.  You shouldn’t need to do this either if you exercise good judgement.  But, if you do, hopefully you’ve actually practiced it.  ATC guide is not great at this. People have been dropped.  That’s why they changed the techniques required and made a simple task more complicated.  DMM pivot or Aline Up much better for this. 

1. simul rap

3.  Definite no with a beginner.  

Thank you.

Your welcome.  

Tri, 

The only thing in this thread that I haven’t seen yet that you’re asking for is a load releasable system (commonly a munter/mule) 

The best advice here is to climb easy routes and make very conservative decisions so you don’t end up in a situation with a rescue (especially you needing a rescue).

Learn the munter mule, and when/why to use it and you’ll be better set up than most newish climbers taking their friends out.

God speed

Trad routes vary widely in terms of gear placement availability, ease of building anchors, route finding difficulty, degree of sandbagging, special climbing skills like crack/chimney/slab, etc.  A few months can be enough depending on what you get on.  IMO routes you've already done would be ideal for bringing newbies.  Popular routes with lots of good documentation / comments would be my 2nd choice.  Outside of that, you're looking at a possible adventure and a great learning experience best done w/o the burden of newbies.  By "burden" I mean the mental overload of worrying about many things at once (even if you're comfortable worrying about each of those things individually).  So put a lot of thought into route choice (not just the difficulty grade).

Agree that having the follower ascend the rope is more practical than hauling. Note that some popular techniques for transitioning from rappelling to ascending don't work if your starting configuration is hanging tied into the end of the rope (as a follower would). I.e. these two "ascending the rope" scenarios deserve attention as separate skills. Teaching new followers this skill before taking them climbing may well result in them deciding multipitch is too complicated and backing out, so I suspect few people do it in reality (which is where choosing an easy route nobody will have problems with helps).

Pay special attention to everybody clipping into the anchor on nice wide ledges.  Nice ledges really affect the brain - even experienced people forget to clip in when their brain subconsciously realizes a fall from this ledge is unlikely.  The subconscious brain doesn't foresee movements around the ledge and each other when the party tries to uncluster a rope mess.  Speaking of which, I'm tempted to say everybody on a team with newbies should have an "installed tether" (e.g. PAS) - you can't expect such a team to consistently manage the rope well, clusters are fairly likely.

If it's multi pitch, you should know what to do if you drop your belay device, either on the way up or the way down. Or if you get to an anchor without any slings/cord, what do you do? There are certain situations in which a total beginner with no skills in their trad toolbox would be stuck/stranded. You do not want to be this person. Go through scenarios in which you are missing a piece of gear that you normally use, and figure out how to work through it. 

If your partner is less experienced than you, stick to top-rope areas and climbs you are familiar with. Select routes close to the car where you can walk up the back and take your time setting up a redundant and secure anchor. Places where help is likely very nearby. Completely avoid destinations and situations that could require significant self-rescue activities. Actually implementing any stage of a rescue alone, even in the face of a relatively minor injury like an ankle sprain, is a daunting challenge. Each step is really hard alone: getting to the belay, down the route, and even just back down a 20 min approach to the car.

In any case, one crag activity I found helpful when learning to lead was occasionally trying to practice aid on short climbs. You learn lots about the forces gear must take, how to remove gear that's been weighted, how to rest on gear, aid through hard sections, and retreat by down-aiding. Plus your partner gets lots of belay experience, holding weight, constantly giving and taking slack, and so on.

If you will be out of hearing or line of sight bring radios.  Simple things you could talk an inexperienced partner thru over a radio could easily turn epic without good communication.  

If you haven't read this, take a look at it.  If there's something you don't understand, make sure you understand it before you take someone out.  You might suggest that your friends read it too.

https://climbingdangers.net/

Great to hear that you are thinking about others safety as well as your own. Having more knowledge might be helpful to other climbers if someone in their party needs help and you are willing. 

Another technique that I practice is escaping a belay. That might be necessary in certain situations. 

I generally take new and less experienced climbers to toprope crags until I feel comfortable with them delaying me on lead.

Have fun and stay safe.

the biggest red flag that i see is not knowing how to lower somebody.  if you don't know how to lower you really have no business taking somebody out.  sorry to sound harsh, but this would be a recipe for disaster.

MMO, PMMO, friction hitches (which you probably already know, re: ascension)

Skim this site and fill in gaps in your knowledge:
https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/

You have barely any trad experience and you want to take out less experienced people? No. If you want to head out with other beginners and have adventures by all means go for it.  But taking out people who by virtue of your described level of experience must be almost first-timers and who are relying on your experience? Bad judgment. You just don't have the experience for it and certainly shouldn't be representing to even less-experienced people that they can trust you to keep them and yourself safe. As a beginner, your best bet is to seek out more experienced people to climb with, not less experienced ones.

By all means, learn some self-rescue techniques, but beware of instilling false confidence.  If you take someone on a climb that requires you to haul them up something with mechanical advantage systems, you've made a critically mistaken choice of route, and the ensuing fiasco (or worse) is on you. If you head up thinking that if your second ends up dangling over an overhang or swings to blank rock, no problem, you'll just haul them---think again.  The 3:1 hauling probably won't work in more than half the situations you might try to use it in because of system and environment friction,

Plus you should know that such systems, improvised with carabiners, are very inefficient.  The standard 3:1 configuration can end up giving maybe 1.8:1 depending on rope and carabiner friction but assuming no environmental friction.  Add a bit of edge friction and friction through protection points and you won't be able to budge them. Convert to 5:1 with an extra sling and maybe you now have  maybe 2.25:1, but if you have to raise a partner ten feet you'll have to pull 50 feet of rope through the system. Standing on a ledge, you won't be able to pull up more than 2 feet at a time, and that assumes you got the length of your blocking prussik perfect so that you don't lose part of each stroke.  This means 25 approximately 70 pound two-foot pulls. Head over to the gym, tie a climbing rope on 70 lbs of weights, and then do 25 reps of two-foot pulls to get an idea what you'd be in for if there is no edge and protection point friction.  And all this assumes you've been able to get an anchor with a nice high power point.  If that isn't possible, your hauling system is DOA if the ropes make a sharp bend of the edge of the belay stance.

Simul-rapping manages to kill experienced climbers. and is just verboten for beginners.  I'm guessing maybe you meant tandem rapping, in which one device supports both climbers and is controlled by one of them.  If your device doesn't have enough friction to control double body weight with the rope you are using, both of you are going to end up in the ER. Have you tested this in a safe locale? Do you how to add extra friction? How about adding it on the fly when you're already on rappel and don't have enough?

Here are some words from Will Gadd, an elite mountain athlete and experienced guide,

"I really can’t keep us—you or me—completely safe. That’s my painfully learned truth after thousands of personal and professional days in the mountains. Days sometimes end badly, even with the best practices and motivations. I’ve lost 25-plus friends to the mountains, and done CPR on a dying man in perfect warm alpenglow. These people weren’t stupid or cavalier. The mountains and gravity simply did what they do, and that was that...I will do my best to keep us in the “good statistics” column while doing beautiful things. But we won’t manage mountain risk, as no one manages mountains. We will use our inherently flawed understanding of the environment, and ourselves, to favor the outcomes we want. And I know I’ll get it wrong sometimes. Strangely, I believe knowing my own limitations helps me make good decisions for both of us."

There's a lot more worth reading---see https://explore-mag.com/dear-mountain-guests-will-gadd-pens-an-open-letter-about-some-hard-mountain-truths/

Now this is a man with decades of experience at the highest levels. Of course, you're not thinking of high-mountain dangers, just some nice warm crags. But I think Gadd's warnings stand nonetheless, and you have to decide whether you should be stepping into the role of guide with what you currently know.

I love all of the excellent advice here.

Second vote for knowing the munter hitch, escaping a weighted belay, knowing how to lower a partner, how to ascend a rope without ascenders, basic first aid, and especially increasing your general climbing knowledge base ie- climbing more with folk that know more than you (probably the best thing you can do), reading How To books like Freedom of the Hills or any of the many niche aspect climbing manuals (and then practice the techniques close to the ground from a tree in the backyard), and also reading several volumes of the best How Not To book: Accidents in North American Mountaineering- invaluable in broadening your understanding of the common to obscure things that can lead to tragedy when climbing.