Quad anchor for sport climbing

We trust single bolts to hold many whippers, yet a two bolt anchor much be equalized for top-roping and lowering forces?!?

Matt N wrote:

We trust single bolts to hold many whippers, yet a two bolt anchor much be equalized for top-roping and lowering forces?!?

you never know when a trad climber might be walking by and open up on those poor bolts with his 50 cal

Matt N wrote:

We trust single bolts to hold many whippers, yet a two bolt anchor much be equalized for top-roping and lowering forces?!?

Thats right. Also need AT LEAST 4 locking carabiners and AT LEAST 9mm cord. All of this is set up from a PAS attached into BOTH bolts. 

grug g wrote:

Thats right. Also need AT LEAST 4 locking carabiners and AT LEAST 9mm cord. All of this is set up from a PAS attached into BOTH bolts. 

Leave my gumby-thong outta this! 

Personally, I like more security than a single triact locker for base-managed top-roping.

I like the point that a number of people have made above - to each their own in terms of the choices they make optimizing safety vs. other concerns. If you want to use two draws as an anchor, that's fine, but there are reasons to use a safer anchor as well.

A lot of us go climbing with a variety of climbers, and we'd like them to be as protected as possible as they toprope lines that the more experienced climbers have put up on lead. For my crew, for example, it's not uncommon for a couple people to lead a route and then three other people to toprope it. One of the reasons it's important to have a strong anchor, compared to the bolts we rely on while leading, is that if you take a fall on a bolt you hopefully will get caught by the one below if it blows. If your anchor system fails, nothing is going to catch you.

And on further reflection, I think I can explain why I think this actually matters: I think that the more familiar you get with using solid, redundant anchors, the better prepared you'll be for other types of climbing, or using your ropes and gear to deal with emergencies. That's one of the reasons I'll always teach people how to build anchors that meet high standards, even when I'm just taking them sport climbing or toproping. One common example is that a lot of people would like to move from single- to multi-pitch climbing, and a quad is a really good option for multi-pitch. The more time you spend getting familiar with actual anchor building when you start climbing, the better-positioned you'll be for growth.

Nothing against quads, but these days for multi pitch with bolted anchors I'll either, if there are chains, clip a locker to the chains and that's your master point or, if not, connect two bolts with a locker draw, clove to one bolt, and belay from the other. Both of these take less time to set up and clean and are lighter than a quad and involve fewer carabiners (and the locker draw will then double up as my rappel extension on the way down). So I am not convinced quads are the best thing to teach new climbers on multi pitching either.

For single pitch with bolted anchors these days it's either a single locker to the chains if they're there or a locking draw and a non locking draw (once I saw the gate of a non locking draw open by getting pushed against something so I am spooked).

Jordan Rogers wrote:

I have taken to bringing two alpine draws for sport anchors. They give flexibility if the bolts are offset, and adjustable length so I can mitigate any weird carabiner loading scenarios and always get the rope side carabiners below any lowering hardware so the last climber can just clip/thread, test-weight the fixed hardware, and lower. Throw lockers on the rope side if you want the extra margin for a top rope scenario 

Only thing I have ever done, for literally decades. The newfangled thing I do is a steel insert locker rather than an aluminum locker. Less frequent replacement. 

Lily S wrote:

Hi all, 

I need a top rope anchors for sport climbing that would be relatively easy to setup and safe, and redundant. 

I thought about using two quickdraws with locking carabiners but wouldn't it be bad distribution of the weight when the bolts are staggered?

So instead I have decided to create a quad anchor from 180cm dyneema with figure8 knots. Here I am using locking carabiners for both the anchor and masterpoint:

And I wonder whether this variant with the triact locking oval carabiner would be better:

Also how do you store the anchor on the harness? I have tried this but it seems bulky:

in pure toprope situations (bolted or trad) i use pretty much the system that scott d describes, similar to what you've shown (with edelrid bulletproof lockers), with the main difference being that my knots are a bit offset rather than even - ie the equalization is skewed a bit more toward one side.  

this set-up is always going to be a slightly bulkier system, but that shouldn't matter if you're racking in the back.  one way to make things a little tidier is to (starting in your top pic) clip gold to gold, then clip silver to silver.  now grab top gold with one hand and bottom silver with the other hand and twist the sling in between a few times.  clip bottom silver to top (or bottom) gold and you're good to go ;-)

We've just been using two alpine draws. I'd like to use one of those locking, edelrid bulletproofs for the rope. If I swap in the bulletproof on one of the alpines,then the rope will still be half on the other aluminum carabiner when lowering and top roping. Is there some trick to get the rope mostly on the steel?

Can we just clip the bullet proof directly to the chain(s)?  And then use a draw that's slightly lower than that as a redundant? This seems hard to explain and get right. 

I think a pre-assembled quad is relatively easy to explain. Maybe the steel carabiner could be slightly smaller than the other rope carabiner so it takes all the friction.

As others have said, ditch the quad for sport. Too difficult to clip when you’re cruxing out. 2 regular draws or one regular draw and a locker draw and call it a day. This setup has all advantages no downsides. 

Equalization - It won't die. 

If I can clip the quick draws to bolts or chains and the biners are right next to each other while reversed and opposed that’s what I use. But if they are even 1 inch apart it’s possible they could unclip if there are twists in the rope or someone climbs above them so I’ll use a quad or a cordelette style setup. If climbing multiple TR routes off one anchor a quad is nice since the master point can slide side to side. As mentioned you don’t need weight distribution, each bolt is strong enough on its own, you just want redundancy in case there’s something wrong with one bolt you can’t see. 

Jeremy Bauman wrote:

As others have said, ditch the quad for sport. Too difficult to clip when you’re cruxing out. 2 regular draws or one regular draw and a locker draw and call it a day. This setup has all advantages no downsides. 

There are downsides to that setup.  

If the bolts are not placed such that the quickdraws are decently equalized one quickdraw will take all, or most, of the load. If you've got a large group you can wear a deep in an aluminum carabiner in a short time. Steel carabiners will fix that but there's another problem. Running a loaded rope over the tight radius of a single carabiner will shorten the rope's life. Doubling that radius, with two carabiners, is much kinder to your rope. You need an equalized anchor to do that. 

Maybe that matters to you, maybe not. Gear is expensive, I want mine to last. 

A quad is only difficult to clip if you're the first one up there, or you come upon two LOCKED biner masterpoint because someone pulled the rope. Solution: fire in a quickdraw, clip it, call take (and/or go in direct with your PAS), then get your anchor setup. 

I'll use two QD's if it's me and my partner (one lower on my gear, one lower/rap on fixed gear). In a group I want a properly equalized anchor, not because I need it for safety (equalization is unnecessary on good bolts), but because I want to limit wear on my gear. That is where a Quad, two slings in a sliding X, or a tied off masterpoint are better than 2 QD's. 

No system is perfect. There are always downsides.

great, now i need two bulletproofs

Tarvis Kalude wrote:

great, now i need two bulletproofs

That's what I use for my TR draws.

Trad/alpine draw with nylon sling, one with two lockers - bulletproof at rope end (one locker, one non). Will last a long time, keeps aluminum off rope. Easy to setup/clip, and offers extension (60cm slings) for routes that need it for less drag/rub at the top.