Aaaagggrraaaa when is the black diamond C3 coming back?

Michael Wolfewrote:

I'm surprised you had this experience, as the head width is equivalent between c3's and z4's, shown below. Perhaps there was something special about this placement that did not bode well for 4 lobes vs 3? 

I do wonder if BD has obstacles putting C3's back in production, as I believe CE certification now requires 5 kN for free climbing protection (would love a fact check here). The 0 Z4 is rated to 5 kN, but the smallest C3 is only 4 kN. 

I would love to see C3's back in the market. I think they're the most robust cam smaller than the black totem. 

nearly a whole cam head more of interference on one side of a z4 if you assume the crack is not perfectly parallel

in addition i would argue that the “near lobe area” of a c3 cam is neat and tidy, while the same area on a z4 has a fluster cluck going on with an extra large hunk of aluminum.  Will admit this is the area of the c3 that has issues or so i have heard, also hate the hooks at the end of the c3 cams from the trigger wires

Honnolds full salathe speed solo rack doesn't have any C3's. 

Boy oh boy he's liking those z4's though. 

that guy named sebwrote:

Honnolds full salathe speed solo rack doesn't have any C3's. 

Boy oh boy he's liking those z4's though. 

Probably because he gets em free and they don’t make the c3 cams any longer

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C87pRW-ym2S/?igsh=MWhwajhsNmM1aTYyYw==

Thought I'd share this, it's an ad but strangely relevant. 

that guy named sebwrote:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C87pRW-ym2S/?igsh=MWhwajhsNmM1aTYyYw==

Thought I'd share this, it's an ad but strangely relevant. 

^ this message paid for in full by black diamond, you literally posted an ad, alex literally was paid to say exactly those words, I mentioned the green c3 repair video a while back because I thought it had some authenticity to it

why make the C4 cams any longer if z4s are the kitties titties?
why make stoppers any longer? why does anyone still make pitons?
I guess we will never know.  

What I do know is no one wants the old c4 cams with no thumb loop or the weird gen before that, even the x4 cams don't sell for a lot, but if you go searching for c3 cams oh boy do people love them things and the well used ones are still fetching $70 or more if they are in new shape probably more in the $100 per cam range.  The market speaks for itself right now really all you have to do is go to the for sale forum and look for C3s or as evidenced by the guy who showed up in this thread trying to price gouge on some C3 cams. How can the marketing clowns at BD not see this?

Ti ckwrote:

For c3 cams oh boy do people love them things and the well used ones are still fetching $70 or more if they are in new shape probably more in the $100 per cam range.  The market speaks for itself right now really all you have to do is go to the for sale forum and look for C3s or as evidenced by the guy who showed up in this thread trying to price gouge on some C3 cams. How can the marketing clowns at BD not see this?

You are confusing an active used market with the greater market for new products. There are certain car model years that are highly sought after, why don't the manufacturers go back to producing that year of that model? Because they are selling more of the current year and it is expensive to retool. 

For every C3 sold on MP, eBay, or Gear trade Black Diamond probably sells one hundred Z4 cams. 

Black Diamond is driven by profit. It is either too expensive to produce the C3's, there's not enough demand, or a combination of both. 

The three smallest C3's are what people want. It is scarcity, not huge demand, that keeps their used prices high. C3 lovers are a vocal minority within a subset of the climbing community. 

I used a full set of C3's for over a decade. Z4's and Totems have been a solid upgrade for me. 

Scott Dwrote:

You are confusing an active used market with the greater market for new products. There are certain car model years that are highly sought after, why don't the manufacturers go back to producing that year of that model? Because they are selling more of the current year and it is expensive to retool. 

For every C3 sold on MP, eBay, or Gear trade Black Diamond probably sells one hundred Z4 cams. 

Black Diamond is driven by profit. It is either too expensive to produce the C3's, there's not enough demand, or a combination of both. 

The three smallest C3's are what people want. It is scarcity, not huge demand, that keeps their used prices high. C3 lovers are a vocal minority within a subset of the climbing community. 

I used a full set of C3's for over a decade. Z4's and Totems have been a solid upgrade for me. 

Totems are my next step, Z4s are whack, its just the same car in a different color.  If black diamond isn't going to make the best gear or a wide variety of options then I will move to whoever is making the best gear with the widest range of options.  DMM cams are better in the larger sizes and Totems are better in the smaller range Z4 cams are the same damn thing BD has always made, a double axle 4 lobe cam, yawn zero innovation except making them "ligher weight" aka now they have a shelf life and aren't as strong. It's like burton spending years and year focusing on the bindings innovation and how you strap into a snow board while GNU swooped in with the serrated edge snowboards that totally change riding.  Stuck in the past, focusing on the wrong products.

Profit ruins lots of good things, doesn't mean it is in their best interest to stop making them and make cool t-shirts instead, its brand devaluation plain and simple and its what I have been complaining about this whole thread they aren't market leaders any longer totem took the lead and their response was to remove some of the diversity of their rock protection options

props to this guy for not super gouging on the price, C3 cams sold super quick as always 

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/126494222/fs-carabiners-slings-c3-cams-petzl-camp-black-diamond-edelrid-dmm

I mean jesus fuck what is even going on? they figured out the trigger mech on z4s with the dyneema string, one piece, they figured out the trigger mech on C3s, one piece.  z4 cams are 5 mother fukcking pieces in there and a great big hunk of aluminum GTFO this is not an improvement.  Really its like 6 pieces because that other piece of steel cable is in there. I added some infographics to help the more simple minds out there. Straight up made in a lab under "optimal" conditions by engineers.

Scott Dwrote:

You are confusing an active used market with the greater market for new products. There are certain car model years that are highly sought after, why don't the manufacturers go back to producing that year of that model? Because they are selling more of the current year and it is expensive to retool. 

For every C3 sold on MP, eBay, or Gear trade Black Diamond probably sells one hundred Z4 cams. 

Black Diamond is driven by profit. It is either too expensive to produce the C3's, there's not enough demand, or a combination of both. 

The three smallest C3's are what people want. It is scarcity, not huge demand, that keeps their used prices high. C3 lovers are a vocal minority within a subset of the climbing community. 

I used a full set of C3's for over a decade. Z4's and Totems have been a solid upgrade for me. 

But like holy shit did you really just defend the profit margins of a gigantic company vs having a variety of protection options while climbing? And it makes sense to you?

due to corporate greed, and the needs of the sHaReholDerz the BD trucker hat can no longer be offered in 5 color schemes, we can only offer one, because it’s easier and cheaper 

Ti ckwrote:

DMM cams are better in the larger sizes 

Worst take of this thread. 

that guy named sebwrote:

Worst take of this thread. 

Worst take is the boot licking clowns arguing corporate profits over a range of nice rock climbing protection. Must have found the BD employees who are butthurt I don’t like z4 camz

McLovinwrote:

metolious, love you guys, BD is going to shit because chounard retired and is busy saving patagonia and corporate merica only give jobs to people with the fanciest resume and best ability to make monies not the longest/most impressive tick lists, so like metolius bros you guys can you like just build a knock off c3? I want to love you guys i know its US based climbers but i honestly do not love the cams, here is a great big market opportunity for you. BD wants to make sHoES and coOl t-sHiRts now, step up and take the crown the cherries are ripe for picking

You know Yvon hasn't had anything to do with BD since the late 80's? 

Andrew Ricewrote:

You know Yvon hasn't had anything to do with BD since the late 80's? 

I think that dude is off his meds, man.

I’m aware yovon stepped away long ago but the company still has him on a pedestal, and making pitons was basically where it all started, but now it’s mostly tshirts and shoes and corporate profits. 

Y’all got meds? Shake that bottle them southern grils come running 

Imagine a company wanting to be profitable!

Climbing hardware is a shit business. By necessity cams are well built and last a long time. And innovation is slow in that realm. Totems were really the last big leap and they're, what, nearly 20 years old? If BD didn't sell clothes and skis and shoes and shit they wouldn't be around to sell us cams. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

Climbing hardware is a shit business. By necessity cams are well built and last a long time. And innovation is slow in that realm. Totems were really the last big leap and they're, what, nearly 20 years old? If BD didn't sell clothes and skis and shoes and shit they wouldn't be around to see us cams. 

Totems hit the market in late 2010, but prototypes were being publicly shown and shopped around to various climbing companies for at least a few years before 2010

just start climbing on a rack of angel cams 

Ti ckwrote:

DMM cams are better in the larger sizes and Totems are better in the smaller range Z4 cams are the same damn thing BD has always made, a double axle 4 lobe cam, yawn zero innovation except making them "ligher weight" aka now they have a shelf life and aren't as strong.

As someone who hasn’t converted to totems yet, I just paired z4s with my DMM cams and thought they work well together. Specifically, the 0.3 and 0.4 sizes complement the DMM range better than the WC offerings IMO. Is the C3 niche not covered by z4s, dragonflies and ballnuts? If the crack is too uneven for a 4 cam head, you’d probably get a stronger placement with a nut anyways, no?

Leif Mahoneywrote:

 If the crack is too uneven for a 4 cam head, you’d probably get a stronger placement with a nut anyways, no?

No. 

Dear diary

Day 469 

The other climbers have abandoned me for being a kook, its ok I love the solitude and the incessant screaming inside my head.

Conversion to totem cams has begun. I was able to sell my body on the street corner for the past couple weeks and scrape together enough money to buy two of the black totems. 

it appears black diamond has reinvented a more expensive down jacket but still no C3 cams. Down for making C3 cams, NOT. Down ducking hill that company is going, all the more reason to buy more totems, just a few more months selling street side services.

 

The local guides are posting thirst traps of tri cams on skinstagrams due to c3 cams no longer available for pro dealers and thats how I know civilization is really starting to crumble. I heard John Wayne Gacy had a full double rack of tricams all the way up to yellow, I pray I can make it to Carolina ice season before full economic collapse

Way back in the day before c3 cams Ted Bundy frequently lured victims to the trunk of his car with the promise of ridgid stem friends only to club the eager gumby with a hand full of 10 pink tricams, truely one of the most horrific ways to die while in the pursuit of climbing.