Backing up Grigri rappels

I'm glad that so many people back up their ATC rappels nowadays. 30 years ago I didn't see anyone doing it. 20 years ago I started doing it while most other people didn't.

For an ATC I run an autoblock on the leg loop. Mainly for 2 reasons. 1. if I want to stop and detangle the rope, take a picture, etc. it's easy to do that. 2. if rockfall knocks me out I'll stop. Since the grigri already does that on it's own I rarely back up a grigri. I don't back up the belay device itself, e.g. with a prusik above the device, because I trust one rope and one harness, so I also trust one belay device and one biner. 

I also use a grigri for route developing and put a catastrophe knot in 10-30 feet off the ground and occasionally after. For back up knots when you think you will weight the rope (e.g. for rappeling) you probably want to weight the grigri and lock it, then put in the knot, because the knot takes most of the rope weight off and the rope can easily slip through the grigri before it catches if you just sit back to weight it.

Using an ATC:
1. one hand - maintaining control of the brake strand BELOW the friction hitch... so you don't descend at a rate that would seriously hurt or more likely kill you.
2. other hand - keeping the friction hitch disengaged by pushing down on it at the top, NOT grabbing the whole thing, because friction hitches don't grab when you grab the whole thing, they grab when you don't grab them.
... The idea is if you go unconscious or otherwise let go of both strands, the friction hitch will grab. It is a backup to your brake hand. Its a good idea, most of the time, because if your brake hand lets go, you will fall. Its also good to have incase you misjudge the friction through the device and its way less than you anticipated. The hitch will grab and you can stop and re-configure your system to add more friction.

Using a GriGri:
1. one hand - maintaining control of the brake strand
2. other hand - managing the cam release lever... so you can actually descend at all.
... No backup is required. If you let go of the lever, you stop. If you are worried about panic gripping the lever, you need to re-evaluate how you grip it. A single pad of a pinky is quite sufficient. If you are worried about them death gripping the lever... but somehow also still gripping the rope... how does adding a friction hitch below their brake hand help? Their hand would still be in a position to disengage the friction hitch. If its a situation where the climber is so new they would try to just use the lever without control of the brake strand, then they are too new to be trusted to rappel with a GriGri and you should lower them, counter balance rap, or tandem rap. (none of these are "simul rapping") Or you could hand them an GriGri+. Or go down first and give them a "firemans".

Bottom line, teach proper brake hand control first - as always.
Then proper instruction on friction hitches.

If you use a friction hitch, test it before you commit to it. If you use a hollow block, where there is no strength reserve in the core and the whole thing is sheath, but also structural, understand it could be way lower strength than you think it is.

Gloweringwrote:

I'm glad that so many people back up their ATC rappels nowadays. 30 years ago I didn't see anyone doing it. 20 years ago I started doing it while most other people didn't.

For an ATC I run an autoblock on the leg loop. Mainly for 2 reasons. 1. if I want to stop and detangle the rope, take a picture, etc. it's easy to do that. 2. if rockfall knocks me out I'll stop. Since the grigri already does that on it's own I rarely back up a grigri. I don't back up the belay device itself, e.g. with a prusik above the device, because I trust one rope and one harness, so I also trust one belay device and one biner. 

I also use a grigri for route developing and put a catastrophe knot in 10-30 feet off the ground and occasionally after. For back up knots when you think you will weight the rope (e.g. for rappeling) you probably want to weight the grigri and lock it, then put in the knot, because the knot takes most of the rope weight off and the rope can easily slip through the grigri before it catches if you just sit back to weight it.

Maybe I misinterpreted what you wrote, because it wasn’t fully specified. But fyi for point 2. if you are knocked unconscious during a tube style device rappel where the tube device is connected to your belay loop (you didn’t mention if it’s connected directly to the belay loop, or extended) and you have an autoblock on your leg loop, then your leg could rise up while unconscious and make contact with the tube style device, thus releasing the autoblock and you fall.

The gold standard nowadays is to use a rappel extension for the tube style device using a PAS or sling, and have the autoblock connected to your belay loop, for this very reason.

I wanted to let you know in case you were unaware or if there are newcomers reading this who are unaware of the possibility of the autoblock being defeated if your leg is lifted up and makes contact with the rappel device. You can search “extended rappel” for many videos on YouTube and articles explaining the benefits.

Chris Wernettewrote:

But fyi for point 2. if you are knocked unconscious during a tube style device rappel where the tube device is connected to your belay loop (you didn’t mention if it’s connected directly to the belay loop, or extended) and you have an autoblock on your leg loop, then your leg could rise up while unconscious and make contact with the tube style device, thus releasing the autoblock and you fall.

The gold standard nowadays is to use a rappel extension for the tube style device using a PAS or sling, and have the autoblock connected to your belay loop, for this very reason.

I wanted to let you know in case you were unaware or if there are newcomers reading this who are unaware of the possibility of the autoblock being defeated if your leg is lifted up and makes contact with the rappel device. You can search “extended rappel” for many videos on YouTube and articles explaining the benefits.

Thanks for the heads up. I heard this years ago and I tested with both extension (I usually use 12" of extension) and without extension and I could not really make this happen with my setup. I use 6mm accessory cord girth hitched to my leg loop. 3 wraps around both strands of the rap ropes in an autoblock (if I'm on a single rope I rap with a gri gri) and clipped back to my leg loop with a biner. The only way I could get the autoblock to touch the belay device was to force myself to hang totally upside down (if unconscious I'd hang more horizontally) and lift my leg to get the autoblock closer to the belay device. No way that would happen if I was unconscious. And even then it barely interfered and at most would slowly release. So I'm not concerned about it at all. Maybe the way other people have their setups it could be a problem, and I'd like to see how this could happen so I know what to look out for if I see someone doing it.  

Gloweringwrote:

Thanks for the heads up. I heard this years ago and I tested with both extension (I usually use 12" of extension) and without extension and I could not really make this happen with my setup. I use 6mm accessory cord girth hitched to my leg loop. 3 wraps around both strands of the rap ropes in an autoblock (if I'm on a single rope I rap with a gri gri) and clipped back to my leg loop with a biner. The only way I could get the autoblock to touch the belay device was to force myself to hang totally upside down (if unconscious I'd hang more horizontally) and lift my leg to get the autoblock closer to the belay device. No way that would happen if I was unconscious. And even then it barely interfered and at most would slowly release. So I'm not concerned about it at all. Maybe the way other people have their setups it could be a problem, and I'd like to see how this could happen so I know what to look out for if I see someone doing it.  

I think it is possible to go inverted in a free hanging rappel where you’re wearing a pack for instance, or it might be possible to touch if you are horizontal on the same side as the leg loop. Another advantage of the rappel extension with the third hand on belay loop is it makes the rappel more ambidextrous.

You can read through this thread here where Bob Gaines chimes in that he was able to get the leg loop third hand to interfere with the device: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/121754572/rappelling-without-extension?page=3

He admits he prefers the leg loop third hand, but I would still say that most climbers I’ve met would recommend extended rappel with third hand on the belay loop. I am younger and primarily climb with younger climbers. It seems like older climbers prefer leg loop due to their experience with it rather than it being inherently better, but I’m all ears to learn why it’s better.

Just to throw a little nugget of turd in this punchbowl; On occasion, when using something like a Reverso or ATC Guide, instead of extending the device and putting the hitch below, I'll not extend the device and put the hitch above the device.  This allows a fairly easy transition from rap to jug.  All you have to do is stop, tie a catastrophe knot for backup attach it to your belay loop, leave your device on, add a carabiner to the device in the secondary attachment point (the point you would use to top belay in guide mode), remove the initial carabiner in rap mode from your belay loop, but leaving it through the rope and device, add a 4' sling to your friction hitch (leaving the backup connection is optional at this point I think) then voila, you've gone from rap to ascension mode fairly quickly and easily and safely.  Granted, there is probably a very limited use case for this, but it's come in handy once or twice.  If you're using a GriGri to descend, this is even easier.  You just add a friction hitch above the device, extend it far enough so that you can step into it, then you're ready to ascend.  This is a bit off-topic and only relevant in a tertiary way, so I welcome and accept any flogging :-)

Jake Joneswrote:

Just to throw a little nugget of turd in this punchbowl; On occasion, when using something like a Reverso or ATC Guide, instead of extending the device and putting the hitch below, I'll not extend the device and put the hitch above the device.  This allows a fairly easy transition from rap to jug.  All you have to do is stop, tie a catastrophe knot for backup attach it to your belay loop, leave your device on, add a carabiner to the device in the secondary attachment point (the point you would use to top belay in guide mode), remove the initial carabiner in rap mode from your belay loop, but leaving it through the rope and device, add a 4' sling to your friction hitch (leaving the backup connection is optional at this point I think) then voila, you've gone from rap to ascension mode fairly quickly and easily and safely.  Granted, there is probably a very limited use case for this, but it's come in handy once or twice.  If you're using a GriGri to descend, this is even easier.  You just add a friction hitch above the device, extend it far enough so that you can step into it, then you're ready to ascend.  This is a bit off-topic and only relevant in a tertiary way, so I welcome and accept any flogging :-)

To give full disclosure I don’t have experience with putting my backup above my rappel device. My understanding is there are some limited circumstances you’d want to put it above your device, such as when you know you have to jug up or pass a knot, but my understanding is it can be a pain to release if weighted by accident, and also you would need the backup to hold all your weight in the event that it was used as backup, whereas with it below your device it’s just holding the weight of keeping the brake strand down.

The pros/cons are covered in better detail in this article than I can articulate with my limited knowledge, if you’re interested in reading:

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/rappel-backup-avoid-a-prusik-above-your-device

Chris Wernettewrote:

 My understanding is there are some limited circumstances you’d want to put it above your device, such as when you know you have to jug up or pass a knot, 

Yep, you're right, and I'm aware and have read that article also, but thanks for linking to it, regardless.  Also, with regard to the limited circumstances you mentioned, I wrote in the post you responded to: "Granted, there is probably a very limited use case for this..."

Rule #1 besides the fight club thing is to know the limitations of the gear and the method you're employing it before using it in a "live" environment.  Every method has pros and cons.  Anyone that says "never" do something or "always" do something, with very few exceptions, is not to be taken seriously.  Some notable exceptions are keeping a brake hand on the brake side of the rope if you're belaying, etc.  But besides those obvious ones, if you're confining your methods to steadfast "always or never" parameters, you're probably not employing the best solution in all scenarios, and likely limiting yourself in ways you don't need to.  Your point is valid nonetheless. 

Remember the rule from BITD regardless of what people were climbing?: "The leader must not fall."  That one didn't hold up so well.  Also, people used to DEMAND that everyone rappelled from top anchors even on sport routes.  Outside of the very few obvious "never" or "always" rules that make sense in almost any situation, I kind of discard proclamations like this: "Rappel backup: avoid a prusik above your device".  Ok, does this mean I can use an autoblock or a klemheist? If someone's going to make specific rules that should "always" be followed, they should use specific language.  What he actually means is to put your friction hitch below the device and not above.  That's what should have been said.  Also, this part only makes nominal sense: "1 - If the prusik knot is above your rappel device, for it to lock up, it needs to hold all of your weight. With the knot below your device, it only needs to hold the same amount as your brake hand, which is minimal."  

The whole reason for having a friction hitch in the first place is if something happens that forces you or results in letting go of the brake strand.  I've tested this fairly thoroughly and I can say that the friction hitch needs to hold your body weight no matter what.  If your hand comes off the brake strand with the hitch above the device, the hitch needs to hold your body weight.  If your hand comes off the brake strand and the hitch is below the device, it STILL needs to hold your body weight. When it's all said and done, as long as one knows what the pitfalls or potential complications are of the method they're using are, and what to do to avoid or mitigate them, then let 'er rip.  

When someone comes to me and says something like "well, I was told" or "my mentor said to...", my first response is usually "ok, what testing have YOU done?"  How did you arrive at your "understanding"? How do you know this to be true?  You explicitly trust someone else's word for saving your life in all scenarios?  Well I hope the person that is giving these binary choices of "always" or "never" can be your full-time climbing partner forever, otherwise, you should start testing these things in a controlled environment yourself- devoid of as much risk as you can remove.

 You'd be surprised by what you can learn that way instead of relying on hard and fast rules that are allegedly the result of a long career of using these methods in real scenarios.  Most of the time that's the case, but sometimes, there's some old crusty blowhard trying to make himself look knowledgeable and supreme- and if you're listening to that guy, godspeed my friend.  My main point is that if you test yourself, then you know without a shadow of a doubt what works and what doesn't and what the risk factors are of every method, because almost all methods have *some* risk.  This goes for how many wraps to use in an autoblock or similar friction hitch based on the diameter of the rope in conjunction with the diameter of the cord from your hitch, wet ropes, what type of hitch you use (klemheist vs. autoblock vs. prussik, etc.) and other similar considerations.  I don't want to be determining what will actually stop my 200 lbs of dipshit when I'm rigging a rappel, I'd rather test extensively on the ground.  This is particularly prudent when one considers dangerous pop-up weather and getting the hell off something as quickly as possible when it counts the most.  Test your theories, don't rely on "wisdom" put forth by other human beings, all of whom are fallible.

Jake Joneswrote:

If your hand comes off the brake strand and the hitch is below the device, it STILL needs to hold your body weight. 

It just needs to hold the braking load of the device, which is a lot less than body weight. The device itself holds the primary load. This is why it’s ok to use coreless aramid products like the Hollowblock as a 3rd hand but not as the primary attachment point to an anchor (per the manufacturer). 

Jake Joneswrote:

Yep, you're right, and I'm aware and have read that article also, but thanks for linking to it, regardless.  Also, with regard to the limited circumstances you mentioned, I wrote in the post you responded to: "Granted, there is probably a very limited use case for this..."

...

Hey, you did open yourself up to flogging as you said ;)

The main point I am trying to convey is to anyone who is reading this thread and isn't experienced, that there are pros and in my opinion mostly cons to putting the backup above the rappel device. A newcomer may not understand all the cons, and you have listed one of the pros in your original post. They might read your post without doing a lot of research and think for that reason it's always better. I was merely pointing out some of the cons. I think the article does a good job of listing pros/cons better than I can.

As you mention, few things in climbing are black and white. But a beginner might see it that way.

Chris Wernettewrote:

I think it is possible to go inverted in a free hanging rappel where you’re wearing a pack for instance, or it might be possible to touch if you are horizontal on the same side as the leg loop. Another advantage of the rappel extension with the third hand on belay loop is it makes the rappel more ambidextrous.

You can read through this thread here where Bob Gaines chimes in that he was able to get the leg loop third hand to interfere with the device: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/121754572/rappelling-without-extension?page=3

He admits he prefers the leg loop third hand, but I would still say that most climbers I’ve met would recommend extended rappel with third hand on the belay loop. I am younger and primarily climb with younger climbers. It seems like older climbers prefer leg loop due to their experience with it rather than it being inherently better, but I’m all ears to learn why it’s better.

Great point on rapping with a pack. I may switch to the belay loop in those circumstances  

The main reason I like the leg loop is I always keep my eyes on the rope below me when I’m moving while rapping.  I have heard of too many accidents where people have rapped off the ends of their rope and although 98% of the time I have back up knots in (I don’t use back up knots if there’s a good chance of getting the rock stuck during a rap with rope eating flakes and/or wind) I just decided to maintain a habit where if I can always see the rope and where the ends are I’ll never rap off it. And it’s easier to keep an eye on the rope when it’s coming off my leg loop, because I’m looking in that direction. So I can see where I’m going, the rope, and my braking hand all in one view.  

If the rope is twisted up (in a rats nest) below me it’s easier to see it and to shake it out from the leg loop.

And It makes it really easy set up the rap too. With my left hand I pull up enough slack to attach the belay device then I pinch the rope against my leg loop with my right hand. I wrap the cord around the rope and clip the biner for the autoblock. Then I have two hands free and all the weight off the rope to attach the belay device. You could do this off the belay loop too but it’s nice to do it down at your thigh where it’s easy and the friction knot doesn’t flip down when you’re done and use up some of the slack. 

That being said there’s huge value in doing what you’re comfortable with and what your partners can easily double check. And I don’t see much difference safety wise. So I’d probably stick with what you’re used to.

Gloweringwrote: The main reason I like the leg loop is I always keep my eyes on the rope below me when I’m moving while rapping.

That’s a really valid point, if it works for you then keep doing it, I’ll have to try and compare where my eyes go next time I’m rappelling a multipitch.

And It makes it really easy set up the rap too. With my left hand I pull up enough slack to attach the belay device then I pinch the rope against my leg loop with my right hand. I wrap the cord around the rope and clip the biner for the autoblock. Then I have two hands free and all the weight off the rope to attach the belay device. You could do this off the belay loop too but it’s nice to do it down at your thigh where it’s easy and the friction knot doesn’t flip down when you’re done and use up some of the slack. 

FYI I do this same trick with the third hand on the belay loop, except I put the third hand on while the rope is weighted (by the length of rope below) then I pull up a small amount of rope through the third hand. Since the third hand holds the weight of the rope below, it makes it easy to feed rope into the rappel device, and as a bonus I get to test that my third hand works :)

Chris Wernettewrote:

Hey, you did open yourself up to flogging as you said ;)

The main point I am trying to convey is to anyone who is reading this thread and isn't experienced, that there are pros and in my opinion mostly cons to putting the backup above the rappel device. A newcomer may not understand all the cons, and you have listed one of the pros in your original post. They might read your post without doing a lot of research and think for that reason it's always better. I was merely pointing out some of the cons. I think the article does a good job of listing pros/cons better than I can.

As you mention, few things in climbing are black and white. But a beginner might see it that way.

Right again, haha.  I agree with you 100%.  But, how one becomes experienced is important.  I submit to you than anyone that goes out and is unfamiliar with different third hand options on rappel and just throws something on because some rando in an MP forum said it worked, then that's on them.  A beginner might see it that way, I agree.   But my tendency is to look at things from a high level overview, and indeed if beginners see things in black and white, a good way to combat that is to do real testing in a controlled environment.  That way they'll hopefully become experienced from their own testing and start to migrate out of the "beginner" moniker.