Most Sandbagged Climbing Areas in America

Northeast 5.9+s are notorious sandbags- it's equally comical as it is scary at times.  When you have Henry Barber telling you to watch the slopers that gave the route its 'plus' you know you're in for it.  

Emory Clarkwrote:

Northeast 5.9+s are notorious sandbags- it's equally comical as it is scary at times.  When you have Henry Barber telling you to watch the slopers that gave the route its 'plus' you know you're in for it.  

The plus is a definite indication that it is not in the 5.9 range. At least mid range 10 ,if not, 

The horn at Patuckaway  is a really good example . That wall is notoriously sandbagged both obscene phone call and no answer have been upgraded from 5.6 to 5.8

june mwrote:

The plus is a definite indication that it is not in the 5.9 range. At least mid range 10 ,if not, 

The horn at Patuckaway  is a really good example . That wall is notoriously sandbagged both obscene phone call and no answer have been upgraded from 5.6 to 5.8

Yeah, the other day a friend suggested that a new route was 9+, but I said that it wasn't that hard, probably only 10a or b.

june mwrote:

The plus is a definite indication that it is not in the 5.9 range. At least mid range 10 ,if not, 

The horn at Patuckaway  is a really good example . That wall is notoriously sandbagged both obscene phone call and no answer have been upgraded from 5.6 to 5.8

I used to think that The Horn was harder than the grade until I found one key foothold. Then I thought it was the OK. I always thought Obscene Phone Call and No Answer were stupid awkward and hard. Probably still are at 5.8!

After doing some crack boulders elsewhere, Tyler’s crack bouldering circuit in Buffalo Creek is pretty outrageously stout. Sent Bachar Cracker quickly and can barely get established on the nearby V3s

The most sandbagged climbing area is the one I climb at and the softest is definitely the one where you just sent your project.

Jay Michael Climberwrote:

Everything east of the  Mississippi is sandbagged until about 11d. Then above that, way softer than out west or Europe. 

Aye this is factual for the most part, and very true for sport climbs. many trad routes in NY above 12a I would consider to be stiff too. My favorite crag, the spider’s web, home to the sickest hard and pure (and natural, sorry gunks, aggressive cleaning and chipping gear placements isn’t exactly natural) trad climbs in the east, is actually soft or spot on at 5.11b and below imo. I have climbed out the classics at those grades and find the classic 5.9+s to be reasonable for the grade (most listed on MP as 5.10a or a/b) but for the crag, with no hard moves, ample rests, good jams or stances. And all the way up to romano’s route which is where I believe the sandbagging begins. There are still the odd softies like white knight, but add the direct start and it tastes like solid 5.12 to me. Its only entertainment is a route that is home to my biggest whipper where I blew it at the end of a 25’ runout, so I can’t rightly call that soft either. Zabba is about as hard as many old school 5.13as in the gunks and to me feels harder than any of the sport 5.13s I’ve tried, even classics like beat junkie, a grade harder. That said the redpoint still eludes me so take my opinion with a heap of salt here past 5.12. 

Older areas aren't sandbagged, they're accurate. 

  Lots of newer areas are just wayyyyyyyyyy too soft.  The idea that more established areas need to change because of soft new grades seems wild to me.  Just move all the soft routes from the last 30 years down to the real grade.

Emory Clarkwrote:

Northeast 5.9+s are notorious sandbags- it's equally comical as it is scary at times.  When you have Henry Barber telling you to watch the slopers that gave the route its 'plus' you know you're in for it.  

Cathedral ledge...

Rob Dwrote:

Older areas aren't sandbagged, they're accurate. 

I disagree, a lot of old areas are sandbagged as a result of the fact that the YDS was originally not intended to be open-ended. Thus people would give lower grades to avoid the risk of running out of grades. Sure, you can say "oh well that means the sandbagging only applies for climbs under 5.10", but even still, once 5.10 became a thing, everyone was going off of reference of horribly horribly sandbagged 5.9++++++ routes, and thus a lot of old-school areas ended up sandbagged throughout the 5.7-11 region.

That said it seems that the higher grades (5.12c and harder, never tried any 5.14 or 15s personally but I've heard the same remains true) are fairly even across the majority of crags, because they are relatively "modern" grades and thus everyone is used to the post-5.10 world where grading is fully open ended and intended to be linear.

I would agree with you if this was Europe, where new areas can be soft solely because they are soft, but in the US I do think there is an actual reason.

Rob Dwrote:

Older areas aren't sandbagged, they're accurate. 

This is hilarious. Accurate with respect to what?

The distance between grades is arbitrary. Soft and sandbagged are two sides of the same arbitrary coin. Neither is 'inaccurate', they're just different. Is the Ewbank system in Australia less accurate because their numbers are bigger?

People found that there was a wide range of difficulty compressed into old areas' 5.8/9 as an artifact of the bounded grading scale. This meant that the change in difficulty with respect to a YDS grade increase was substantially higher than at lower grades, so climbers decided to spread that range of difficulty out over more grades. If anything, that _increases_ the accuracy (or at least the consistency). I mostly climb at 'sandbagged' areas (the Gunks, Eldo, Hueco, Cathedral Ledge, etc) and find while traveling that the grading at newer areas is far more consistent.

MattHwrote:

Can anyone name a sandbagged sandstone area (EDIT: for roped climbing)? NRG is only stout relative to other sandstone - it's still pretty soft relative to granite IMO. 

I think sandbagged is often used to mean 'unintuitive', which is generally more apt to describe granite than sandstone. I suspect that it's hard for sandstone to be sandbagged due to its tendency to form positive, easy to use features, which, combined with its high friction coefficient means you can generally plop a hand/foot down and go without worrying much about sequence, technique, or tension.

Eldo? Surprised no one has mentioned it yet. More known for weird gear than true grade sandbagging though.

Alec Owrote:

Really??? Not that everything is super soft around flag, but it feels like modern grades to me. (Except Jacks. Jacks is soft.) Maybe some older routes in Sedona? But I feel like the Mace, for instance, is pretty much spot on.

That is totally fair if that is how you felt. Yous a strong boi lol. Have you climbed a lot in Sedona? Especially routes off the beaten path and maybe a little older? Modern routes get modern grades. How about the basalt crags like Paradise Forks? Mountain project has more modern grades due to consensus but it is not the same in the old guide books. I learned how to climb here and I feel like I can go anywhere and climb at least the same grade if not higher. Regardless, NorAz is an excellent place to cut your trad climbing teeth. Ps. I love the Mace and have climbed it many times but calling the 4th pitch 5.9 is, respectfully, a sandbag. PPS. we don't claim Jacks Canyon. That can belong to Happy Jack/Mogollon Rim country :) Don't forget to bring your power drill to make your project easier! 

Nolan Bwrote:

I learned how to climb here and I feel like I can go anywhere and climb at least the same grade if not higher. Regardless, NorAz is an excellent place to cut your trad climbing teeth. 

Have you climbed at the Gunks?  I spent 10 years climbing in northern AZ and boy do I miss the grades and easy to place gear in splitter vertical cracks.     On my best days I would onsight 12a trad in NoAZ but a few days ago wasn't able to reach the chains on a mid-11 in the Gunks.  

My general climbing experience is relatively limited compared to most of you, but Little Cottonwood feels extremely sandbagged to me. Anything 5.8 or higher in LCC gives me pause... The last pitch of Pentapitch comes to mind. Feels like 5.10a/b to me, but its suggested grade is 5.8!

For me, NoAZ is soft compared to traditional granite areas like joshua tree, yosemite, and tahquitz, but i think part of that is that I prefer onsight climbing and flagstaff rock is a lot more straight forward for OS climbing compared to granite (with some exceptions of course).

My top 2- Index & Paradise Forks

My home crag is the Gunks and it seems anywhere else I go I can climb at the same grade if not up to two grades higher. 

Emory Clarkwrote:

Northeast 5.9+s are notorious sandbags- it's equally comical as it is scary at times.  When you have Henry Barber telling you to watch the slopers that gave the route its 'plus' you know you're in for it.  

Three particularly memorable "pluses"; P2 of Pooh at 5.8+, P1 of Children's Crusade at 5.9+, and Vultures at 5.10+. Each very hard for the grade even if not the biggest sandbag at the grade.
I seconded a 5.8 or 5.9 at Index once and it was quite stiff.  Can't recall the name for the life of me.

All these comments about the gunks…? For fellow NE climbers, does the gunks not feel soft compared to the Daks, Cannon, Acadia and even Conway? Are these comments from west coast climbers who haven’t ventured further east then the gunks, or are we all missing something?