Burly trad shoes for fussy feet - Generator Mid sizing, other options?

I'm looking for an all day comfortable trad shoe that is burly and performant enough for easy-mid grade trad climbing. Not climbing hard so not yet looking for anything super technical or downturned. Probably in that beginner-intermediate all day trad domain. Mostly climbing indoors at the moment (3ish times a week) but have previous outdoor climbing experience and looking to get out a lot more this year.

My feet are soft and a bit flat and wide, so I do struggle finding shoes that aren't agony. I have something of a Greek footshape (second toe slightly longer than big toe). Generally wear a US10 street shoe but sometimes an 11 depending on the shoe shape etc. I wear a 43 in the old TX4s which are very comfortable, although the new TX4 retro/evo feels more comfortable in 43.5.

My current climbing shoe situation is:

• A pair of old TC Pros in 42, and a pair of new TC Pros in 42.5. Bought the new TC Pros in 42.5 because after quite a bit of time in the old TC pros I felt the 42 were just a tad tight and uncomfortable for multipitch missions etc. particularly on hotter days. But then it seems that the new TC Pros potentially fit tighter than the old TC Pros, so going up half a size didn't get me very far. Both pairs are pretty broken in and fit reasonably well length-wise. However I find them quite tight in the toes and narrow overall, and my feet ache in the arrches after a relatively short time in them, so I often need to remove them between pitches etc. I also find with the new TC Pro in particular that there's some dead space between 'point' of the shoe and the tip of my big toe, so I can't properly edge on my big toe.
• Used to have a pair of Mythos in 41 that fit okay (unfortunately lost them). I liked them after they broke in, although I'd potentially prefer something stiffer.
• For indoor climbing I'm currently wearing Evolv Kronos in 43 (US 10), which are actually great and by far the most comfortable shoes I've found so far. I found them pretty tight when I first got them but they have broken in nicely over time.

I've just picked up a couple of pairs of Generator Mid shoes in 42 and 42.5 as I'd heard they were a bit wider in the foot and toe box. They feel pretty tight out of the box though especially over the middle knuckle of my big toes, although I expect this would stretch. Haven't tried climbing in them yet. Any recent experiences with these and how they stretch over time? I know there are a few older threads here but interested in the current view now that the shoes have been out for a while.

I'm also interested in any other suggestions from people with fussy feet:

1. Any experiences with the Yosemite Bum, especially in terms of how they feel compared to the Kronos once worn? I've tried Yosemite Bums in 10 and 10.5. I find the 10.5 more comfortable out of the box, but can I expect them to stretch to the same extent as the Kronos?
2. Any other options out there? I've heard the BD Aspect Pro might be good. 

I don't 100% need to get mid-height shoes although I do like the ankle protection. I'm really just looking for a comfortable and durable trad all rounder with some edging ability. Not climbing hard so no real need to optimize from a technical perspective. E.g. if Generator Mid can't quite fit into narrower cracks or Yosemite Bums aren't quite as stiff as TC Pros, it won't really matter as I'm not going to be leading 5.10+ outside at this stage. Just looking for a comfortable, durable shoe that fits properly and has a modicum of technical ability.

Thanks, interested in everyone's thoughts. Let the over-analysis begin!

The YBs have a very wide forefoot and relatively square toebox, with a much shallower heel than the generators. I believe they fit a similar foot as the kronos. They are also flatter in profile and softer both on top and in the sole than the generators. My shoes stretched at least 1/4 size, maybe even 1/2 after breaking in, and the sole softened considerably. I use them with socks for long easy routes and they work fine for that, but I find them sloppy for anything technical. 

If you want burly, the generators and Acopa Legends, JBs, and Aztecs are in my opinion the best right now, depending on your foot shape. The first two Acopas fit a similar shape to the YB, but are both more sensitive and more structured somehow. They work great on both technical face and crack climbing from offwidth to thin hands, though they are a little tall for thinner cracks in my opinion. The Aztecs are narrower but also fantastic, comfortable shoes.

Butora Altura makes a wide version. I have a new pair in 43 that is big for me that i would sell for a good deal. I wear a 42 tc pro and these Alturas are a bit big for me.

I have the BD Aspect Pro's and Acopa JB's - both are excellent shoes that are pretty comfy. Based on your foot description, aspect pros may be a little better, but at the same time JB's are all leather, so you can theoretically break them in to your foot. Aspect pro definitely has enough synthetics and structure that if it doesn't fit out of the box, I'd doubt it works itself into it. 

I have a generally wide and flat foot, and my first step to "graduating" from Tarantulace (which I was in for FAR too long for my climbing ability) was into the Sportiva Finale. I've been pretty happy with them on 5.moderate up to easy 10s. They definitely do better on slab than edging. I've heard others refer to them as TC-lite but I've never climbed in the pros, so I have nothing to compare against (I did recently upgrade to Katana for harder sport climbs but still climb in the Finale when the grades are easier). 

Stay away from YBs, the rand busts very quickly. Bad edging ability but very comfy and stretch out perhaps 1/4 a size.

You might want to check out the Scarpa Vapor Lace.  The upper is relatively thin and so jamming them in wide cracks is more painful than in the Generator Mid or TC Pro.  However, jamming on the rubber rand is relatively comfy.  The shoe is a bit wider than the TC Pro.  The toe box is less asymmetrical than the Generator toe box, which allows my toes to lie flat.  My second toe is not as long as my big toe, so YMMV.  For reference, I have flat feet, with low instep and a low volume heel.  

The Katana Lace will probably accommodate your longer second toe, but the toe box is relatively narrow.  

I think the Aspect Pro is a really nice shoe. Unfortunately it didn’t play nice with one of my injuries. It fits very very similarly to the 1st gen TC Pro.

The YB was really not impressive to me. The edging felt very weak. The toe box was also oddly square for my already very square foot.

If you can get your hands on a 1st gen TC Pro, I think those really are the tops. If you set an alert on eBay and ask around here, you can still find them new. 

Isaac Mann-Silvermanwrote:

The YBs have a very wide forefoot and relatively square toebox, with a much shallower heel than the generators. I believe they fit a similar foot as the kronos. They are also flatter in profile and softer both on top and in the sole than the generators. My shoes stretched at least 1/4 size, maybe even 1/2 after breaking in, and the sole softened considerably. I use them with socks for long easy routes and they work fine for that, but I find them sloppy for anything technical. 

If you want burly, the generators and Acopa Legends, JBs, and Aztecs are in my opinion the best right now, depending on your foot shape. The first two Acopas fit a similar shape to the YB, but are both more sensitive and more structured somehow. They work great on both technical face and crack climbing from offwidth to thin hands, though they are a little tall for thinner cracks in my opinion. The Aztecs are narrower but also fantastic, comfortable shoes.

Thanks, good to have some direct feedback on the YBs. I am tempted by them due to fit alone, but what you say matches what I've heard elsewhere - that they soften up pretty quick.

I hadn't really heard of Acopa until now, but I've looked them up and they look very interesting. What's the best bet for trying them on? REI don't carry them which are my closest bet for outdoor shops at the moment. I guess just mail order roulette direct from the Acopa site?

Also, do you have any experience with the Generators in terms of foot shape, especially compared to the Acopas and YBs?

Norm Larsonwrote:

Butora Altura makes a wide version. I have a new pair in 43 that is big for me that i would sell for a good deal. I wear a 42 tc pro and these Alturas are a bit big for me.

Thanks, I hadn't heard of Butora either! They also look pretty sweet. I don't know enough about them or their shape to gamble on a second hand pair at the moment, but thanks for the offer - if my search leads me in that direction I might come crawling back to you in future, haha!

Casey Jwrote:

I have the BD Aspect Pro's and Acopa JB's - both are excellent shoes that are pretty comfy. Based on your foot description, aspect pros may be a little better, but at the same time JB's are all leather, so you can theoretically break them in to your foot. Aspect pro definitely has enough synthetics and structure that if it doesn't fit out of the box, I'd doubt it works itself into it. 

Thanks, Acopa JBs and BD Aspect Pros now both on the list...

I wear 44 in TX4s and have been very happy with a 43.5 generator mid for steep granite (aside from thin cracks). Mid-wide foot and low arch. But for a supportive and burly all day shoe I think they're great. Mine are sized down enough that I'll pop them off after a few pitches, they stretched a bit but not as much as I expected for a leather shoe.

I have a brand new pair of generator mid sz44 for sale if you're interested.

Michael Cawleywrote:

Thanks, good to have some direct feedback on the YBs. I am tempted by them due to fit alone, but what you say matches what I've heard elsewhere - that they soften up pretty quick.

I hadn't really heard of Acopa until now, but I've looked them up and they look very interesting. What's the best bet for trying them on? REI don't carry them which are my closest bet for outdoor shops at the moment. I guess just mail order roulette direct from the Acopa site?

Also, do you have any experience with the Generators in terms of foot shape, especially compared to the Acopas and YBs?

Yeah I would not buy the Bums again despite how well they fit my feet.

Just email Acopa letting them know what you're looking for and what other shoes fit you well, they are super generous with their responses and letting you try on shoes by mail. Basically give you free return shipping for shoes as long as they are just being tried on, and you can keep ordering different sizes until you find the ones you want.

I have only tried on the generators, they had much too deep a heel and too much volume for my flat feet. My friend who loves them has high arches and pretty large heels, he also likes the old maestros so he's weird.

acopa

https://acopaoutdoors.com/collections/trad-shoes

Thanks @Mike, @Joseph, @Karl. Hadn't really considered the Finale or Vapor Lace. Sounds like another piece of negative feedback for the YB, which is a shame but noted!

@Chris C, interesting. I do have a pair of 1st gen TC pros which I've worn a lot, and eventually concluded they're a half size too small for longer days but otherwise great. I might try them again as it's been a while. Maybe you're right in that it could be worth keeping my eye out for a 42.5 in those, or try the Aspect Pros.

@Micah thanks, that's interesting. I'm 43 in old TX4s but seem to feel better in 43.5 in the TX4 Evo. Not sure if that's just because my old TX4s are so worn in... kind of implies that my 42 and 42.5 Generators might just be a tad small, perhaps I should have grabbed a 43. 44 in Generator will be too big for me, thanks for the offer though.

@Stretch-For - noted, thanks.

Isaac Mann-Silvermanwrote:

Yeah I would not buy the Bums again despite how well they fit my feet.

Just email Acopa letting them know what you're looking for and what other shoes fit you well, they are super generous with their responses and letting you try on shoes by mail. Basically give you free return shipping for shoes as long as they are just being tried on, and you can keep ordering different sizes until you find the ones you want.

I have only tried on the generators, they had much too deep a heel and too much volume for my flat feet. My friend who loves them has high arches and pretty large heels, he also likes the old maestros so he's weird.

That's awesome, didn't realize they might be so responsive or helpful in terms of the mail order try on option. I'll definitely hit them up. I also see on their website that they will even arrange mixed size pairs, which is fantastic! My left foot is like a half size bigger or something, so it's great to have that option. Thanks for the heads up!

I have generators and multiple pairs of Acopa JBs. After about 20 pitches in the generator they’ve broken in really nicely and are a lot more comfortable then when brand new and I like them a lot. They are stiffer and burlier than the Acopa JBs. The JBs are lighter, extremely comfortable after break in, and are probably better for a flatter foot (less arch support than the Generators). They are not as good for edging since they’re softer but better for smearing. Toe profile height is a bit narrower on the JBs, so while they still aren’t the best for thin cracks, they are better than the Generators.  Definitely would recommend them for your use case. If you are a 42/42.5 in the Generators, you’d like be a 43/43.5 in Acopa JBs. 

Ben Ewrote:

I have generators and multiple pairs of Acopa JBs. After about 20 pitches in the generator they’ve broken in really nicely and are a lot more comfortable then when brand new and I like them a lot. They are stiffer and burlier than the Acopa JBs. The JBs are lighter, extremely comfortable after break in, and are probably better for a flatter foot (less arch support than the Generators). They are not as good for edging since they’re softer but better for smearing. Toe profile height is a bit narrower on the JBs, so while they still aren’t the best for thin cracks, they are better than the Generators.  Definitely would recommend them for your use case. If you are a 42/42.5 in the Generators, you’d like be a 43/43.5 in Acopa JBs. 

Interesting, thanks. Can I ask what size in Generators you’ve gone with, and what your street shoe size is? And also what sizes in old or new TC Pros, if you happen to have worn them in the past.

Edit to add: I’m definitely interested in trying out the Acopas, but already sitting on a couple pairs of new Generators that I can’t return so I’m still tempted to try and use those if I can.

Check out the Black Diamond Aspect and Aspect Pro. I actually like the normal Aspect better, and they’re pretty inexpensive. I used to wear a size 43 TC pro and size 11 for both the aspect and aspect pro is perfect. 

Thanks all. Update -

I ended up taking the Generator Mid in 42.5 for a spin. A little tight around the toes perhaps and they do feel baggy around the heels at first but that seems to be improving as they break in.

And I have to say that the improvement in comfort is significant. I think they are a lot better for my foot shape/width and the relative length of my toes than either old or new TC Pros. They edge a lot more precisely and confidently for me too. So I might have at last found a model that works well, hooray.

For anyone having issues with the heel pocket being too baggy / not snug enough, I recommend adding an extra set of eyelets above the top stock eyelets.  This has helped me eliminate dead space in the heel.  However, it does slightly restrict my ankle flexion and extension.