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PSA RRG Privileged Dog owners
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i looked up the leash laws where i was climbing and they exist. people really can’t or won’t police themselves and it’s to everyone’s detriment. kind of sucks. i met a nice dog today though, Stella was on a leash and was a bouvier(?). 1 out of 3 ain’t bad? |
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Michael Rushwrote: All the stories about leashes, bites, barks, poop, land access, etc are just a distraction. What really gets under dog haters skin is that there are different people, with different ideas about how to live, and that in the abscence of clear laws, they can't make other people behave as they wish they would. So they get scared and uncomfortable and angry. Hence the spittle-flecked rage and frustration in all these posts. The dog haters should all go and cuddle some dogs! Below is a social therapy dog I know. He weighs about 60 kg and he often works at primary schools and kindergartens. He also makes house calls to disgruntled climbers. You need to spend some time with this big guy! He doesn't bite but he does slober!  |
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i could cuddle dogs all day and it’ll still be annoying when dogs are tripping me at a belay, eating my lunch, barking or attacking people, and wading past a sea of shit bags (never mind the unbagged turds) on my way to the cliff. there are no dog haters, only people who are sick of dog owners that won’t follow the rules or take responsibility for their pets. is that clear? |
Bruno Schullwrote: How freaking entitled are you to suggest how someone else polices their property. You are lost out there in a theoretical existence where you actually believe your own bs. It's getting sad |
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Oh then I remember your completely unacceptable behavior in the women's forum, posting like you have any business there to begin with. Kick rocks, pound sand whatever but take your ball and go |
petzl logicwrote: Hi Petzl Logic, I apporeciate you clear and coherent contrinutions. At least you aren't ranting, which is admirable these days. Thanks for that. Obviously, I get it. Perhaps ypu can see that. But my role in these dogs threads is to provide a counterpoint, to balance the vocal minority. If you have followed these many threads, you might have some idea of how I would bring or not bring my dog to the crag, on leash or off. But my behavior, or your behavior, our our wishes/hopes/dreams/fears isn't the point. What I am saying is that, in the absence of clear laws, and without some kind of objective arbiter or right and wrong, then the many people here self-righteosuly proclaiming to know the truth are simply telegraphing their narrow-minded prejudice. Clearly, there are people who actually do like dogs off leash at crags, and if that's how they want to live, then we can't change it. Folks can rant all they want on the internet, but dogs are here to stay, right by our sides, as they have for thousands of years, a point I've made many times. So people need to learn how to cope, not cry in frustration. I reccomend lots of time with a good dog, like this one. This is a picture of me with Luna's mom She had nine pups in that litter. The farm where she was born kept the largest male to help protect the sheep against wolves. We took the smallest female, who is, of course, Luna.  |
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no need to debate in bad faith. the only true minority are the “dog haters”. i think i stand for the majority when i complain about the rampant dog issues. what i don’t understand is your insistence on arguing on behalf of dogs and owners that can’t follow the rules or act responsibly. this is an indefensible position and these people should have their behavior corrected so people could have a more pleasant time and not risk access. that’s all. |
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@ Big Country, Ahhhh...where to begin? Unfortunately for you, I have some free time tonight. You wrote: How freaking entitled are you to suggest how someone else polices their property. You do realize that I was responding to somebody who specifically asked how I would handle the situation? That is, I was not suggesting the owner do anything with her property, I was answering a question. Maybe you missed that. I do love your use of the word "entitled." This term basically become meaningless, a dog whistle, so to speak, but I do think there is a great deal of "entitlement" in these threads. For example, I think people have a great deal of "entitlement" if they beleive that they can go out into the world and not encounter dogs, not have their private space violated, not have their hygiene challenged, not feel in the slightest way unsafe or annoyed, and so on. To me, that's entitlement; the beleif that the world should accord to your desires. You also wrote: Oh then I remember your completely unacceptable behavior in the women's forum, posting like you have any business there to begin with. I guess you thought that by bringing up that other thread I would be somehow embarassed? I completely stand by my conduct in that thread. Just to review for those who missed it, here's what happened. 1-We were having a conversation about trans athletes. There were some extreme voices, but there were also a good number of rational, calm voices seeking middle ground and looking for shared values. This would be immediately obvious to anyone who actually reads the thread. 2-It was mostly men in that discussion, save a few valued voices from women, so I posted a neutral invitation for more views in the women's forum, not to challenge or provoke, but to broaden the discussion. Afterall, the central discussion was about trans women competing in the women's category. If the women's forums is not the right place to pose such a question, then where is? 3-One woman wrote back and made a huge number of sweeping generalizations, assumptions, and accusations. She painted everybody in the other thread as a sexist, misogynist, transphobic hater, obviously without reading the varying views. Moreover, she proclaimed her academic and moral superiority about the topic, even going so far as to say, in her words, "I litterally have a doctorate in feminism." Last, after making these accusations, and establishing her total superiority, she said that should would not deign to discuss the matter any further, the discussion was beneath her. 4-That sort of behavior, on any forum, deserves to be called out. Not wanting to attack her publickly, because that would be confrontational, I wrote her a DM, which, considering what she had written, was actually quite neutral. Basically, I wrote, "Wow, your response was intense. In my view, it demonstrates much that is difficult in these discussions. Since it's obviously an important issue, do you care to discuss it further privately, perhaops away from the public eye?" 5-This private message so offended and enraged her that she tried to "out" me as somebody who had said terrible things to her personally. She tried to make it seem as if I had crossed some horrible line of conduct by writing to her personally, so I responded by sharing the actual text I had written, a clear, logical, non-threatening, non-atacking message, so everybody would have the actual text and make a judgement for themselves. 6-Some posts later, a women said that she felt "uncomfortable" and the thread was locked. I did not lock the thread, or at least I did not do so intentionally. As soon I saw it was locked, I tried to unblock it, but it was immediately locked again. If there was a way to continue that conversation, I would happily do so. But, as it says in the message at the top of the women's forum, that space is heavily moderated, so fair enough. In any case, to come back to your accusation, I absolutely stand by my words and conduct. What I wrote was not innappropriate at all. Last, you wrote: Kick rocks, pound sand whatever but take your ball and go There's no rock kicking or sand pounding happening on my part. You, on the other hand, do seem deeply upset. As above, I reccomend some quality time outdoors with a nice dog. Just for you, I did a Google search for "Big Country Dog." Here's the first image I found.  |
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Bruno- former rescue dog owner, all around dog lover, current dog foster dad, AND avid supporter of leash laws here. Your notion that everyone who avidly supports leash laws and their enforcement is a "dog hater" makes you come across as not arguing in good faith. Your notion that because people have "a right to not use a leash", therefore are entitled, therefore should never be questioned for not using a leash is the exact same logic people used to justify un-masking during all of covid. Essentially, I have bodily autonomy (mostly, in the US), therefore I can't be required to wear a mask, therefore anyone even asking me to wear a mask is the enemy. Freedom hater. Or in your case, anyone who advocates for leash laws and conscientious crag dogging is the enemy. Dog hater. The reality is that you are so far into your personal sense of entitlement that you're blind to it. As someone who has owned rescues and currently fosters, I know that entitled dog owners who refuse to leash their "friendly dog" make my life much harder- an inconvenience I have come to accept as a dog foster. With wild card, potentially reactive foster dogs, I basically can't use any public trail within an hour's drive, I can't take any foster dog to any local crag. I obviously can't use dog parks with a potentially reactive foster. Even on local trails that do require leash use, only maybe 1/2 of dogs are leashed. If 100% of people would leash their dogs in public spaces I could take every foster dog everywhere. All the humans and dogs could be safe and happy and if anyone doesn't get along the humans have total control of the animals. But people (presumably like you) won't do that, so dogs that are already suffering get an even shittier deal so that lazy dog owners can let their pups run amuck in the name of "there's no entitlement there--it's litterally their right". |
Andy Shoemakerwrote: Hi Andy, Another solid and rational post. Thanks for that. I pressed the "like" button. Just two things: People who've followed these threads for a looonnngg time (God help us) might understand that I used to bring my dog to the crag, but I do not now, becuase I realized she didn't like it, actually from reflecting on a post by another user here, so my behavior regarding my dog and crags was litterally changed by reasonable people like you. And regarding leash laws, when there is a law, I put Luna on a leash. So, gently but clearly, your presumption is wrong. As to why I take the positions that I do in these threads, see my posts above: it's important to push back against the dog haters. |
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Proving once again women have no safe space from Bruno smh go on with your delusional self |
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Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa. Completely independent of any of these dog threads, I was once "one of those guys." I grew up in the country, with country dogs given free range of dozens of acres. Our dogs were licensed but often not collared. They were pets, not working dogs. But that said they were definitely not treated as people nor were they afforded any rights whosoever, in the world of humans. If one of them crossed my pop, he'd give them the boot, not a finger wagging dog whisperer of a lecture. As an adult I came to dog ownership though that lens. Frankly and in hindsight I was not a responsible owner for the most part. I'd let my dog off leash all the time. I didn't give one single shit if others took issue with it or not. I was selfish and my dog was an expression of that selfishness. I had several run-ins with some park rangers about letting my dog off leash at a bouldering area. As a result I got sneaky and would simply visit more remote areas, rather than comply. It all came to head for me at a sport climbing crag. Me and my bud both let our dogs run free as we approached the cliff. There were only a few parties there (ah, the good ole days!) and one group also had an unleashed dog. Long story shortened, my dog got into a fight with that other dog. I got him separated very quickly and no hard words were exchanged but it changed the entire atmosphere there at the base of the cliff. Me and my aggro dog were no longer welcome, full stop. We left, preferring space over confrontation. Didn't climb a thing that day. To rub salt in our wounds, on the way out my buddy's dog got into human shit, ate some of it and it was all over her fur! He didn't notice till she'd rubbed some onto his clothes, wtf. Back at my pickup the dogs were banished to the pickup bed. When my buddy got in the cab and I got a wiff of him I damn near hurled, lol. My following words, we laugh about to this very day (and remain lifelong friends and climbing partners too, I'd add), "Dude, I can't have human shit in here. I can't do it, it makes me want to vomit. You have to ride in the back." Silence for a minute, then he says, "You want me to ride in the back with our shit covered dogs?" I answered, "No. I'm telling you, you ARE riding in the back." Hahahahahahah! He says, "I understand." And he got in the back. It was just a half hour from home and alls well that ends well. We never took our dogs to a climbing area again, ever. We both talked and agreed we'd learned our lesson that day. I was much better with the leash after that too. Finally one sad day many years later my old doggie up and had a heart attack in our kitchen and passed from this world. It pains me to this day, too. I loved him as did our whole family. And to close, I have never owned another pet, not so much as a goldfish. I admit it, I am not a responsible pet owner and never was, and likely never will be. And I can't bear the parting. I love dogs and have no fear of them and I still don't care if people let their dogs run free, not at the crag and not in the cafe like the other morning when this guy's unleashed dog sat in the hallway by the bathroom staring into the kitchen, licking his lips. Neither did the staff but that's irrelevant. While I don't care personally I do think we should all be respectful of the law, of other people and their desires to not have dogs up into their shit.
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Cherokee Nuneswrote: So what you’re saying is that it’s only a matter of time before Bruno finds himself kissing the human shit covered tongue of some dog and then finally realizes that leashes could work in some cases and maybe it is best to respect a strangers personal space. Ok, now we’re getting somewhere. |
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Problem being is if said shit was Bruno's to start with, he won't think that it smells bad. Probably won't even notice and enjoy the kisses. |
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I love it when the dog threads reach the "shit" part...you dog haters are so squeemish...it's almost as if you have a fixation of some kind... Here are two pictures of Luna taking a cookie from my daughter's mouth.  l  |
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We need more pics of Luna soaking her butthole in a livestock water trough |
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Dogs growl, moan, whine, hum and more. You have to take the time to learn their language if you keep one as your companion. |
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Luna talks :) Body posture and movement, head movements, ear position, and of course, TAIL movements, are important too! Dogs communicate very clearly. We just need to learn to understand. |
 I can take my little warrior with me, which has no offensive power, and can help me at certain times, or keep it in my backpack. |
