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PSA RRG Privileged Dog owners
Companionship Humor Selfless love Wild joy Being connected to another soul/living thing Cuddles Kisses Tail wagging (built in happy-o-meter) Letting a natural creature enjoy nature Overload of smells for a creature that lives by smell And on and on...
Much less than half...Team Dog is way bigger than Team Anti-social
True. Dogs have been part of human life for thounsands of years. |
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Bruno now do the cons list: |
Bruno Schullwrote: You have very strong opinions, and that’s cool but it is just an opinion. I’ve seen people sent to the hospital because of dog bites, so I have my opinions too. And I’m sure the cons list from the community would be way longer. |
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I'll say it since no one else will.... If you dog haters want anything to change, the only course of action is regulatory. Lobby your favorite land managers to prohibit dogs at the crags, work to get it included in area management plans. Make it a mission to separate canines from crags. But that takes effort and face it, you're not going to do that. If you're reticent as a climber to ask for regulatory intervention, but still want to limit dogs at the crag, take some MMA lessons and let your fists and feet do the talking. |
Cherokee Nuneswrote: It's not just passing laws. It's also enforcement. There are plenty of places in Colorado where dogs are supposed to be on leashes and they never are. If you ask the rangers they will tell you - "Well if we happen to catch them and we feel like it, we may choose to give them a $50 fine" That's not much of a deterrent. In fact if anything it is more like a permission fee - that is if anyone even feels like collecting it. It's actually quite stupid. Why waste time passing laws you have no intention of enforcing? My guess - the politicians don't want to take a stance but want to act like they are actually doing something. They are completely riding the fence on the issue. To the people who want leashed dogs, they say "Look we have a law" and then they turn around and say to the irresponsible dog owners "But we never really enforce it". |
Point taken. Don't be nice. Aim for a complete dog ban, as compliance will be easier. Make sure there is a provision to create a reporting mechanism to rat them out! |
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The fixation that people have with their pets is so odd to me. And before you go blasting me for not having a dog in my life. I grew up on a farm with 7 dogs so I know plenty of their enjoyment they bring. I loved them all dearly, rest in peace. But this argument of dogs to the crag has been talked to death. People will be people with their dogs. There will continuously be arguments about good/bad dogs at the crag and good/bad dog owners. Some people may experience a bad day with a crag dog and some will enjoy a stress free enjoyable time with a crag dog. A general policy of being respectful and considerate at the crag is all I ask for. Maybe nowadays including being more quiet outdoors would be nice. But it seems more than ever, people are more aggressive and selfish since the pandemic. The rules at the Red are pretty damn simple in the grand scheme of climbing areas in the US yet people just can't follow them because it'll impact their enjoyment of the day. The Red isn't what it once was in terms of crowds and people impact but nobody seems to care about that these days. People never know how good they had til the access gets more restricted and the hoops get setup just so less impact and bad actors can hopefully be filtered away. Just follow the rules. |
Bruno Schullwrote: I’m convinced and will be headed out shortly to buy a dog, preferably from a designer puppy mill. As I am now a dog owner, all I am asking from my fellow fur parents: pick up after ourselves, no more trailhead pile or leftovers we respect the rules at sites that say “no dogs” or “on leash” we should keep our dogs on a leash when people are present / belaying / or where circumstances could be bad for other people, the animals that have no choice but to live in their habitats (groundhogs, porcupines and the rest that dogs chase) or our animals can be harmed (cliff edges) if we can all agree to do this i’m sure these threads will become far less frequent than they are now and we all have a stake in maintaining positive relationships with our fellow climbers and land managers easy! |
Karl Crottswrote: Because they like it. I like my dogs more than most people. If you think bringing a dog pisses off half "the community". Wait till you see them throw a bitch fit when a retro bolted trad line or bolted crack gets chopped. Half "the community" cares more about other climbers not wearing helmets enough to talk shit about them. Half the community would like to turn crags into grid bolted climbing gyms and then bitch about the overcrowding their development created. I'm willing to listen and change course and have many times. But what I love about the southeast is we're laid back enough usually not to throw NIMBY fits on issues like this. At most places that is. |
Cherokee Nuneswrote: I understand this perspective but I don't agree. The premise here is that the only thing to force change is top-down intervention. That may be the only visible tool in the short term, and the only thing that COMMANDS change and instant gratification. IMO conversations at the crag, between partners, and on digital forums all contribute to a group effort at forming a consensus for what is best practice or, at least, what is the range of acceptable practice. The sport changes over time, things like impact considerations, the need for infrastructure like campsites, parking, trails, etc., as well as attitudes towards sharing routes and educating beginners are all dynamic aspects of a sport that is growing quickly. Certain aspects of the sport are bound to evolve in tandem. To that extent, the law isn't necessarily the only recourse and, I might argue, not even the best tool for this stuff. Consider bolting and how the practice is governed by agreed upon norms. Certainly in national parks or privately managed land there are restrictions. However there are also many areas where the law has very little to say about how many bolts if any a pitch should receive and yet a system of expectations exists around route development. Yes, there are occasionally disagreements that regrettably spill into bolt wars, but that's simply failure to reach consensus in the more conversational settings such as this one. Boring and repetitive as these can be, I do think its valuable to chew on these ideas regularly to reduce the number of negative incidents IRL. After all, newcomers who aren't chronically online MP forum users do find threads like this and take their cues from these dialogues (among other places). For example helping people understand the ways in which certain dog behaviors (or owner behaviors), no matter how well intentioned, might be seen by others can help folks make decisions that reduce the number of negative interactions thus taking down the temperature of the situation and, ideally, undercutting the need for regulatory intervention. I don't think we need to have an attitude of "I don't respect your position, if you want something changed then get the law changed and bring enforcement down on me about it." It just doesn't have to be that way. |
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I love dogs and don’t really have strong opinions on whether or not they should be “allowed” at crags but I just really don’t understand what having your dog at the crag really adds to the day. I’ve climbed with dogs (and once even my own cat) plenty of times and when my partner or someone in my group brought their dog it detracted a lot from the actual climbing part of the climbing. It took extra time in transitions between routes our approaches were slower, staging had to be much more thought out and we end up spreading out/taking up more space etc.
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An illuminating thought experiment that one can use when faced with topics like this: what would happen if everyone behaved the same as me? This is a useful tool to discover if you're an entitled jerk or suffer from cognitive dissonance. |
Jason Kimwrote: Cute. How does that play out with the target audience…
What do I do? What I do is think my dog is awesome. If everyone would just think my dog is awesome, the world WOULD be better. The rest of these assholes clearly need to get in line. |
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Great News! Tallulah Gorge is open again! Unlike RRG, you cannot legally nor logistically bring a dog there to climb. |
Pinche Gringowrote:   Dean Potter has entered the chat. |
Rpropswrote: 1. you might get put on blast on MP... by someone that cant deal with shit in the real world |
Rpropswrote: Nah he left the chat a while back in a hard a fast manner. Luckily the pup wasn't with him |
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I think my dog is awesome too but I have realized that if she is loose she will play whack-a-mole in the talus all day with the critters or find a lonely porcupine that needs attention, this alone is enough to give her a great walk in the morning and leave he at home with her two cat buddies. When she is occasionally on a leash it's very predictable that some inbred doodle is going to approach her and lose a mouthful of precious and expensive doodle fur. It's basically a losing situation for us at the crag so she pretty much only goes on hikes now where keeping an eye on her 100% of the time is easy. Off leash freedom on hikes, bikes, canoeing, skiing and even sometimes ice skating seems to be just fine, cragging not so much. |
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carry some pepper spray and in your convo with the dog owners, explain that you will deploy the stuff if the dog becomes a problem |
bernard wolfewrote: Those are bold words, and that make you appear tough, but as we have established many times, that kind of approach is troublesome. First, define, "becomes a problem." If a dog was standing in front of you with it's ears back, growling and ready to strike, or it was lunging at you and snapping it's teath, fair enough, deploy the pepper spray. But if a dog was just wandering around doing dog stuff, getting in your way, sniffing your gear, barking without aggresion, stepping on the rope, invading your personal space, licking your hands, and so forth, and you deployed your spray, you would likely be in a world of legal trouble. Nobody likes somebody who abuses animals, including the police and the courts. To say nothing of which, if you pepper sprayed a dog for no good reason, you migth get into a spot of trouble with the owners, and that could lead you to regret your tough guy approach. I prefer the approach of the New York City Central Park Bird watcher guy, who was involved in a vile racist incident with a "Karen" that made national headlines (just Google it if you're curious) He seems like a wonderful person and a gentle soul. When dog owners let their beasts roam off leash illegally in is cherished bird watching corner of Central Park, he would explain to the owners that, if they did not leash their dogs, he would feet them treats As dog owners are often very particular about what they feed their dogs, his approach was generally effective. In any case, he didn't resort to macho posing with pepper spray! |
