climbing ethics

I think we all agree that when you climb a first ascent you get to name the route. 

So if one is the first person to develop a climbing area does that right go to the person or just the 3rd 4th or 5th person who just happens to post about it?  asking for a friend

Walter Burkhardt 1wrote:

So if one is the first person to develop a climbing area does that right go to the person or just the 3rd 4th or 5th person who just happens to post about it?  

A wise climber once said to me, regarding naming: "plant your flag and name it, otherwise they will"

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/125472682/who-are-you#Comment-125794967

Cunninghams Law. "The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer."

Claim everything without a guidebook as an FA on MP; wait a few weeks for the guy to comment that he sent the route with his buddy Fish in '93 and they wanted it called The Fart Smuggler. /s

First of all the name dance hall has some undertones which I will not stand for

What undertones are these? 

Walter Burkhardt 1wrote:

I think we all agree that when you climb a first ascent you get to name the route. 

Actually, NOT all agree that the 1st person to send the route should get to name it. Developer develops the route - finds it, bolts it - paying money for hardware, spending hours drilling, cleaning. They most assuredly deserve more credit that just a by note in route description, and naming the route is some recognition of their efforts.

As to incorrect entries in databases - considering lack of documentation of who/what/when could be fair error.

Seems to me that first party to open a line at a new crag gets to name the crag. An exception would be caves/ampitheaters in NM, all of which must be named The Bat Cave and all routes therein must be named after lame superheroes.

It's when critical mass happens that a name settles in. People agreeing it's a good name and using it and communicating it. Not just what one person wants.

I remember 10 years ago looking at what the name of the generation after millennials was. There wasn't consensus at that time. It could've been iGen or Generation Z. I just looked the other day and it's now totally settled as Generation Z, like 98% of people call it that. 

Actually, NOT all agree that the 1st person to send the route should get to name it. Developer develops the route - finds it, bolts it - paying money for hardware, spending hours drilling, cleaning. They most assuredly deserve more credit that just a by note in route description, and naming the route is some recognition of their efforts.

Nope. No send, no naming rights. The FA has the option to indulge the bolter's suggestions, however. Or not!

It all seems trivial. Hardly an ethical dilemma, but . . . What if some jackass adds an alternate finish? New name?

As for whole areas; damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What Walter isn't sharing is that he had a name chosen for 'his' crag that he kept private. After years of inactivity, he's shocked to find that someone else has found the crag on public lands, and posted it on MP with a 'different' name since they were not able to guess or telepathically pick up the name from Walter. 

Even though the crag post has a note "I'd love to talk to whoever did some of the initial development here", Walter got his undies all wadded up and is now airing his dirty laundry on MP. 

Anyway, having been peripherally caught up in this kinda drama before, I'm experiencing second-hand embarrassment for Walter. Locals who have been climbing much longer than me say he's a great guy, so it's weird to see him take the "get off my lawn" old man approach rather than engage sincerely with some very motivated new developers. Getting someone named "kimberly humann" to sign up for a MP account ONLY to post "Walter is the original developer" adds an extra layer of cringe.

And if I've gotten any of this wrong, spare me any more details (like transparently sharing the communications between you and the new developer which you could've done from the drop) and let me get to the point: no one gives a shit, this is between you, your bruised ego and someone else, and you're obviously not coming to the table in earnest goodwill. 

 Just for reference, here's the original post where Walter clutched his pearls rather than extending an olive branch.

In follow-up posts, he claims: "He [Patrick] was given my name and chose to ignore it . I am the developer of the area I would have gladly had a discussion of what to call the place but was not asked ." When did Patrick choose to ignore your name? Where did you previously leave your name, pre-MP, so Patrick could get ahold of you? 

Seriously, this thread is so fucking dumb and NOTHING WILL BE ACHIEVED HERE. Close this shit up and go talk to Patrick. Preferably in person where you two can act like adults. 

I've got no dog in the hunt, other than an interest in climbing here when the season opens back up, whether it's called "Dancehall", "Bear Springs," "Dad's Wall," or "Dad's Slow Descent into Irrelevance and Yelling at Clouds."

One-sided internet drama is absolutely childish, and I'd expect a grown ass man to show more restraint. Don't @ me, cuz there's nothing for anyone to engage with here except for Walt and Pat. 

Walt, you can still save your awesome legacy of contributing rad climbs in the Portland area. Posting shit like this ain't it, though.

Walter Burkhardt 1wrote:

I think we all agree that when you climb a first ascent you get to name the route. 

So if one is the first person to develop a climbing area does that right go to the person or just the 3rd 4th or 5th person who just happens to post about it?  asking for a friend

Snooze, ya lose.

J Pwrote:

What Walter isn't sharing is that he had a name chosen for 'his' crag that he kept private. After years of inactivity, he's shocked to find that someone else has found the crag on public lands, and posted it on MP with a 'different' name since they were not able to guess or telepathically pick up the name from Walter. 

Even though the crag post has a note "I'd love to talk to whoever did some of the initial development here", Walter got his undies all wadded up and is now airing his dirty laundry on MP. 

Anyway, having been peripherally caught up in this kinda drama before, I'm experiencing second-hand embarrassment for Walter. Locals who have been climbing much longer than me say he's a great guy, so it's weird to see him take the "get off my lawn" old man approach rather than engage sincerely with some very motivated new developers. Getting someone named "kimberly humann" to sign up for a MP account ONLY to post "Walter is the original developer" adds an extra layer of cringe.

And if I've gotten any of this wrong, spare me any more details (like transparently sharing the communications between you and the new developer which you could've done from the drop) and let me get to the point: no one gives a shit, this is between you, your bruised ego and someone else, and you're obviously not coming to the table in earnest goodwill. 

 Just for reference, here's the original post where Walter clutched his pearls rather than extending an olive branch.

In follow-up posts, he claims: "He [Patrick] was given my name and chose to ignore it . I am the developer of the area I would have gladly had a discussion of what to call the place but was not asked ." When did Patrick choose to ignore your name? Where did you previously leave your name, pre-MP, so Patrick could get ahold of you? 

Seriously, this thread is so fucking dumb and NOTHING WILL BE ACHIEVED HERE. Close this shit up and go talk to Patrick. Preferably in person where you two can act like adults. 

I've got no dog in the hunt, other than an interest in climbing here when the season opens back up, whether it's called "Dancehall", "Bear Springs," "Dad's Wall," or "Dad's Slow Descent into Irrelevance and Yelling at Clouds."

One-sided internet drama is absolutely childish, and I'd expect a grown ass man to show more restraint. Don't @ me, cuz there's nothing for anyone to engage with here except for Walt and Pat. 

Walt, you can still save your awesome legacy of contributing rad climbs in the Portland area. Posting shit like this ain't it, though.

My goodness 

“Yelling at Clouds” would have been a much better name than “Who are You???”

or Relevant rock

And Walter, since I don't just want to leave you bittered with my largely sarcastic response:

You're clearly a crusher; and the routes, your internal stoke, and your attitude towards others are a combined legacy that you leave behind. I hope you have enough of each part of that in your life so that you can let the little things go every now and then! If not, find a belay partner and go get some rock therapy!

Name Redacted Crag is teh beeessst!

“Left at the Waltar”

Walter is a really solid, respected, and respectful individual in the Oregon climbing community. I immensely appreciate Walter’s contributions. 

Routes aren’t real until they are on MP.