Bolting at trad crags in pa

Wanted to hear opinions and thoughts on people coming to all trad climbing areas and putting up sport routes.

I came across two people attempting to bolt a sport line at mount minsi the other day at the Delaware water gap. There are two sport lines next to each other bolted sometime in the 90’s I believe next to a trad climb that a climber died on the top pitch due to rockfall. These individuals wanted to bolt next to the sport lines and very close to the first pitch of this unfortunate trad route.

This area is maintained by the national park service and is illegal to use motorized drills at the park. I explained how it might upset people to know that right next to the rock cairn to memorialize the individual  that perished, people are bolting a sport route. They seemed understanding, but also wanted to provide an easy and safe route to gym climbers. Climbers with little to no trad experience and perhaps rope rescue skills. I gave my opinion that it might increase risk of accident to open the area to less equipped and skilled climbers. That rescue operations are difficult and may be complicated with road closure to access the approach and could take hours, even all day. This was acknowledged and rebutted with it being only single pitch.

I don’t believe either had much experience of the area and the surrounding climbs, but were interested in the sport lines. Upon asking why not go to sport climbing areas I was told it’s too far. All that said it seemed they took into consideration of what I had to say and I left them with the decision.

So how do you as climbers of sport and trad feel about this. Should existing trad crags make way for more beginner climbers and individuals that want the safety of gym climbing, or should the standard of hard man before us make you nut up or shut up?

In your specific example, it seems fair game to put another sport route in next to existing sport routes - the "trad crag" has already been infected. 

That said the would be developers should not piss off the land manager by using a power drill where it's not allowed. As far as the choss goes, that's a valid concern and perhaps a warning should be posted on the route page. But climbing is also inherently dangerous.

So the reasons these individuals wanted to bolt a line was: 

A) to give gym climbers easy access 

B) the existing sport climbing was too far away

Yikes. 

These are TERRIBLE reasons to bolt a route. Unless the line opens up quality climbing on a face that otherwise can't be protected by traditional gear, sounds like they're bolt-drunk and ego-developing. Just an aside: sport climbing at its core is about pushing performance, only recently did people get confused and think it's a means of pandering to those inexperienced with outdoor climbing. 

Kenneth Dougherwrote:

Wanted to hear opinions and thoughts on people coming to all trad climbing areas and putting up sport routes.

I came across two people attempting to bolt a sport line at mount minsi the other day at the Delaware water gap. There are two sport lines next to each other bolted sometime in the 90’s I believe next to a trad climb that a climber died on the top pitch due to rockfall. These individuals wanted to bolt next to the sport lines and very close to the first pitch of this unfortunate trad route.

This area is maintained by the national park service and is illegal to use motorized drills at the park. I explained how it might upset people to know that right next to the rock cairn to memorialize the individual  that perished, people are bolting a sport route. They seemed understanding, but also wanted to provide an easy and safe route to gym climbers. Climbers with little to no trad experience and perhaps rope rescue skills. I gave my opinion that it might increase risk of accident to open the area to less equipped and skilled climbers. That rescue operations are difficult and may be complicated with road closure to access the approach and could take hours, even all day. This was acknowledged and rebutted with it being only single pitch.

I don’t believe either had much experience of the area and the surrounding climbs, but were interested in the sport lines. Upon asking why not go to sport climbing areas I was told it’s too far. All that said it seemed they took into consideration of what I had to say and I left them with the decision.

So how do you as climbers of sport and trad feel about this. Should existing trad crags make way for more beginner climbers and individuals that want the safety of gym climbing, or should the standard of hard man before us make you nut up or shut up?

It’s illegal to use motorized drills, call the cops and be sure to get their license plates.

Ken -- I'm with you and thanks for raising the question.  The Gunks has the Preserve to enforce the trad ethic.  Places like Mt. Minsi (though on federal land) only have the local ethic, which I believe is in line with your view.  This year's closure has not been announced yet, but the place is usually closed from late January/early February through the end of July for raptor nesting.  Peregrines have succesfully used the crag for many years in a row.  A bunch of new single-pitch sport routes would perhaps change the calculus for the NPS as they develop their management plan -- especially if these routes were established illegally in the first place.

Title and premise is misleading. You're taking a single instance and assuming it is happening regularly, I promise you it is not. Further it is not an all-trad crag per your own description. Btw if you know where to look theres more than 2 sport routes in the area.

I’m obviously biased in my description and attitude with the way i worded and opened the conversation. The harder sport route has quite a big run out between cruxes that could be supplemented with gear, so it leans towards a mix route. The easier 5.9 route has plenty of bolts to chains and is a full fledged sport route. These are “illegal” as the park requires individuals to ask the park for permission and they don’t allow motorized drills. I’m opening up a dialogue to people who aren’t familiar with the area and the rules to stop and educate those who wish to open more climbing to those looking for sport climbing at my local crag. Also if you are referring to crackpot as another sport route it has two shiny bolts and three rusty pitons, I’d hardly call that a sport climb. It is most definitely mixed at the least. Unless you prefer free soloing with extra steps.

My biggest concern is people bolting classic trad lines. I’ve heard multiple climbers groan about why do they have to buy and be skilled at placing gear at an “almost all trad crag”.

I Fwrote:

Title and premise is misleading. You're taking a single instance and assuming it is happening regularly, I promise you it is not. Further it is not an all-trad crag per your own description. Btw if you know where to look theres more than 2 sport routes in the area.

If you give sport climbers an inch they always take a mile. Stay the course!

I Fwrote:

Title and premise is misleading. You're taking a single instance and assuming it is happening regularly, I promise you it is not. Further it is not an all-trad crag per your own description. Btw if you know where to look theres more than 2 sport routes in the area.

But we can agree that historically it is a trad area, like the Gunks and "sport" style bolting is something that is not in keeping with the character of the area, right?

Kenneth, did these folks mention or did you see what hardware they intended to install? 

Trouble Twrote:

But we can agree that historically it is a trad area, like the Gunks and "sport" style bolting is something that is not in keeping with the character of the area, right?

Kenneth, did these folks mention or did you see what hardware they intended to install? 

I dint ask, nor do I know bolts well, but looked like the expanding type. I would guess stainless. Pure speculation. As far as I know they did not bolt the line. I believe they toproped it a couple times by first climbing the neighboring sport climb and were cleaning it.