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New Black Diamond Anchor Sling
rgoldwrote: I think that this is just saying that you shouldn't use it on trad or Ice. my theory for why they wouldn’t want you to do this is because of the angles that you could make from using ice screws and trad gear. but i could be wrong because i didn't make it. |
Chris Cwrote: Well then, what specific features of this gear make it unsuitable for trad gear? And why are those features not also features of other sling arrangements with high strength and very low elongation? Andrew Sourwrote: I don't think that's it. They have a warning about angles in the instruction sheet that covers all such possibilities, so no need to insert pictures warning about things already covered. And the pictures posted as warnings do not depict extreme angles, as you'd certainly expect if that was the point. |
rgoldwrote: Well the manual for their regular dyneema slings says they’re ok for trad gear… Maybe they don’t want you to use 2-piece trad anchors? No idea. |
S Hacheywrote: Our test sling never showed any signs of abnormal or excessive wear after a couple hundred pitches. My partner still has it and we still use it regularly. I have no comments about the trad anchors. Can’t say I was aware of that not being a suitable use but I can also say that I’ve never wanted to use it in a trad anchor. It doesn’t make much sense in that application to me. |
WF WF51wrote:  |
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Maybe it's that the anchor design doesn't eliminate extension in the event of one of the two pieces failing, which BD has perhaps concluded is not OK if the remaining piece is natural gear or a screw but is OK it it's another bolt. |
Andy Wiesnerwrote: If so, the same criticism (which I find valid) would apply to any quad tied with dynex, which is why I wondered whether BD thinks anchor slings should be nylon. |
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I agree this new BD anchor rig is a niche piece of gear and its primary usage would be bolted belay anchors (sport and/or big wall). I suspect the rationale for why BD does not recommend this for trad or ice belay anchors is not the issue of nylon vs. dynemma but rather the wisdom of actual usage of a Quad (that has large extension) for gear anchors. Derek DeBruin has two articles which can be found on the Internet where he discusses the use of a Quad for trad/gear anchors: "Comparison of Fixed Length and Sliding Anchor Rigging for Recreational Climbing Systems" - 2019 and "The Quad is Awesome/Terrible: Examining the Applicability of Sliding Anchor Rigging Methods" - 2021 The earlier article shows tests results where one of the gear placements fails and the later article is an opinion piece where he references the earlier test results. The problem, as Derek describes, is the practice by guides (and mimicked by recreational climbers) of moving the limiter knots all the way to the ends of the Quad. Where this allows easier rigging for bolts (or ice screws) that are offset vertically and gives greater range of movement for the masterpoint, it also introduces more extension in the event one of the gear placements fail. This isn't a problem for good bolts placed in good rock, but trad gear and ice screws are not as strong as bolts and have a greater risk of failure in the event of a fall. Derek's test results show that with the limiter knots moved all the way to the ends of the Quad, extension can result in loads that exceed the strength of trad gear. This test is for a worst case scenario, with both the climber's weight and the belayer's weight being subject to extension. The new BD rigging does not have the usual limiter knots of a tied Quad. Instead the limiter knots are the sewn points of contact located at the ends of the sling up near the points of connection to the pro. It would appear that in the event one piece of the anchor failed there would be considerable extension resulting in additional load to the surviving piece. One of the BD diagrams (1 gear placement/one bolt) shows a "!" symbol - be warned/possible issue. The other diagram (1 gear placement/one ice screw) shows a "death symbol". Aside from the issue of the BD rigging, Derek's articles makes a compelling argument for the wisdom/usage of a normal Quad with limiter knots placed far apart. His articles are a good read. |
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I don't think any of these warnings would change if it were nylon (or even if it was made from dynamic rope). (No knots should also make it more "static", but rope should generally be in the system anyway, and in the case of extension, maybe ripping through the bartack will act as a screamer). Due to extension (sereNE) (as well as the shape of a quad) it seems like standard advice for quads to be used with bolts or screws. My guess for the warning about screws is that this is weaker to extension than a normal quad (can't adjust the limiter knot, and the bartack can rip), but that's kind of a shame because quads work well for ice, IMO. Are people in this thread using knotted quads for trad anchors? That seems generally not great but I am curious to hear if/when it's working for you. @NateC Thank you, that's good news and good to know! |
S Hacheywrote: Plenty of quads in use on trad anchors, and the recommendations are coming from guides in general. In case there's any doubt about this, here's a random selection of images found immediately on the internet. The only comment that has made sense to me is that in an ordinary quad, the knots can be adjusted to limit extension, but the BD version has a non-adjustable maximum extension and this could be a problem if a trad piece blows.        |
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@rgold Huh, i see, thanks for sharing. Ill have to go watch some of those videos some time, as it still seems to me like it would not be faster (one of the advantages of a pre-tied quad on bolts) and potentially less versatile. There also seems to be the higher risk (vs bolts) regarding extension. But for the Squad, if extension does happen, it (in the diagrams) rips the bartack, ruining the product for further use (as opposed to knots). Though if BD did sell a quad with knots, they might still put the warning label for using it with trad gear. BD addes some pics of it in action: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/product/sewn-anchor-system/    |
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So ask yourself… Do you think BD is offering us this breakthrough innovation because of countless requests for a safer way to handle the challenge of creating a safe and simple anchor out of 2 bomber bolts? Or are they simply creating demand for a product that everyone seems to be getting along without just fine… Really, for their stated purpose of using this product on multi pitch and big wall routes, would you ever launch with just this and no other anchor building materials? |
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Anybody here watch the cooking show Good Eats with Alton Brown? He constantly emphasizes in the show that instead of buying dozens of ‘uni-tasker’ kitchen gadgets, you should learn how to use the staple kitchen tools in a variety of situations. Seems to me like the same thing going on here |
Noah Betzwrote: I see no reason you couldn’t use this as a PAS. Perhaps a rappel extension, a standard anchor. A runner if you were really scrambling. A foot loop to use as a point of aid. A basket seat at an uncomfortable hanging belay. A tourniquet with attachment point for elevating the wound. *~expand your mind~*
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S Hacheywrote:   I’m so mad rn  |
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In the spirit of keeping it light and tight while also avoiding this super rare and specific failure mode that you’ll notice was also prevented by a regular sling: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/110088639/rock-fall-results-in-chopped-anchor I can see it having a place in the bottom of the bin next to my DMM pivot and Wild Country Revo and any number of other niche pieces I’ve collected over the years. I’d probably even be stoked to grab it on my way to EPC or Red Rock or the Verdon. It might even save me 30 seconds a pitch which I would appreciate not to mention look pro af. I’ll |
DWF 3wrote: I remember reading that. I'm guessing this shiny new BD thing would not survive that... |
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Because. In descending order. Buying gear, buying gear, buying gear, climbing. |
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Also, as the DAV already concluded years ago, there is no need to equalize 2 good bolts. Which is why they shouldn’t be placed horizontally anyway. |
