New BD ice tools?

Christian Donkeywrote:

And speaking of JJ, there are significantly better tools out there that I'd recommend over everything else if you can afford them   

Do tell.   Elite Climb Morphos perhaps?  

Kai Larsonwrote:

Do tell.   Elite Climb Morphos perhaps?  

Yes, they’re perfect.

I’ve literally never seen someone holding them.(much like the Edilrid vapor ledge) I would love to see that? The handle looks cool though. And what’s the difference between the colors?

Christian Donkeywrote:

Yes, they’re perfect.

I've got a pair on order.  

Headed for Ouray in a couple of weeks to try them out.  

The handle is the best part: very comfortable with a nicely sized pommel for supporting your hand. Plenty of room for a large hand and a thick glove. With my hands and a thin glove for dry tooling, there's just enough room for matching at the 1.5 position (not quite as much room as some of the other comp tools out there like Anchars). They're warm, super lightweight, and climb ice, rock, and comp holds better than anything else I've tried (I've tried almost everything on the market in some capacity). The difference in colors are minimal overall, however, they definitely do make a difference and can fine tune your experience depending what you're looking for. I generally would recommend Green Morphos as they are the most "all around" option that would suit whatever you want to climb, rather than being a specialist. The photo below is of the Blue Morphos designed for ice. I'll also include a chart (from Verti Call) that helps break things down.

Thanks for sharing Christian! Makes a lot more sense!

You can pry my Cobras from my cold, dead hands.   

Christian Donkeywrote:

The handle is the best part: very comfortable with a nicely sized pommel for supporting your hand. Plenty of room for a large hand and a thick glove. With my hands and a thin glove for dry tooling, there's just enough room for matching at the 1.5 position (not quite as much room as some of the other comp tools out there like Anchars). They're warm, super lightweight, and climb ice, rock, and comp holds better than anything else I've tried (I've tried almost everything on the market in some capacity). The difference in colors are minimal overall, however, they definitely do make a difference and can fine tune your experience depending what you're looking for. I generally would recommend Green Morphos as they are the most "all around" option that would suit whatever you want to climb, rather than being a specialist. The photo below is of the Blue Morphos designed for ice. I'll also include a chart (from Verti Call) that helps break things down.

Do you like the Morphos with the optional head weights?  

I ordered the blue ones, as I'm going to use them pretty much exclusively for water ice.  

Christian Donkeywrote:

there have been lots of Nomics breaking out in the field. 

Can you provide lots of examples?  

Karl Henizewrote:

Can you provide examples?  

 Buddy of mine broke his on fat plastic ice just about a month ago. Tool hadn’t been abused or beaten on either. It broke when he weighted it after placing the tool. Not the first nomic I’ve seen break this way either, ergos seem to be more prone to it though.

Kevin Mcbridewrote:

 Buddy of mine broke his on fat plastic ice just about a month ago. Tool hadn’t been abused or beaten on either. It broke when he weighted it after placing the tool. Not the first nomic I’ve seen break this way either, ergos seem to be more prone to it though.

Thanks.  What was Petzl’s response?

That looks similar to the broken Ergonomic that Caroline George had.  I believe she posted the pics on Instagram.

Edit: Found it https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl1_yYtPu7O/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D&img_index=1 

One thing to bear in mind if that if Elite climb, or any manufacturer, had the volume of Petzl, we would see breakages.  

I'm not saying those pics are frightening, but failures do happen.  

Maybe the DMM tools or the new BD tools don't look so bad after all...

Bruno Schullwrote:

One thing to bear in mind if that if Elite climb, or any manufacturer, had the volume of Petzl, we would see breakages.  

I'm not saying those pics are frightening, but failures do happen.  

Maybe the DMM tools or the new BD tools don't look so bad after all...

I'm not saying that the BD tool can't fail, but I definitely don't see how it could possibly fail the way the nomic/ergonomic has, given how BD has constructed the handle. 

Jim Clarke wrote:

As a BD tester this season who's been a long time Cassin tool user and previously broke a pommel on Nomics...BD's new tools have specifically addressed the durability problems in previous generation nomics. These things are really strong beasts. 

What did bd do differently than Petzl in terms of construction?

Here's another (hi Marriane!). There are more examples I could dig up in addition to the previously posted ones. Maybe not enough evidence for you, but for me I'm drawing the conclusion that there's a fundamental failure with the construction. I have never heard an example of this happening to BD tools (not to say that it couldn't happen) I just am convinced now that one piece construction is the better path forward. Albeit heavier, is a fair trade off for durability. 

Re: Elite Climb. I have heard and seen failures of their tools. The difference is that they are constantly improving their design, materials, and construction and absolutely 100% stand behind their products, even making this information available to the public: https://www.instagram.com/p/B9UBpDzj7g3/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

What's bad publicity for a company like Petzl, is not the same for a company that strives to innovate, not just mass produce cheap products for a profit and regurgitate the same tool for two plus decades. I know BD is guilty of this too, however, I'm being objective regarding their material and construction as likely more durable than Petzl. 

I am absolutely loving climbing on Elite Climb tools for all the aforementioned reasons. While carbon is not a material I would consider "indestructible," recent innovations have proven to be astounding. Their tools have survived being dropped from the top of the same route ~20 times and I have seen testing videos of the carbon shafts withstanding repeated blows from a hammer. Yes, carbon has its drawbacks, but the joy of using these tools has been unparalleled. While it's not the type of tool I would choose for abusing the fuck out of, it's a precision instrument for the right users. They may not be the option for everybody, but I see them paving the way forward for what's possible in an ice tool.

Also, shoutout to my friends at Forecast Equipment making the Nor*Easter. Made entirely of 7075 aluminum, if you're looking for something indestructible with the qualities of innovation (they're constantly working on new stuff!) and a company that puts their heart into their product. You'll be seeing lots of climbers with these tools if you haven't already. forecastequipment.com/

Christian Donkeywrote:

Here's another (hi Marriane!). There are more examples I could dig up in addition to the previously posted ones. Maybe not enough evidence for you, but for me I'm drawing the conclusion that there's a fundamental failure with the construction. I have never heard an example of this happening to BD tools (not to say that it couldn't happen) I just am convinced now that one piece construction is the better path forward. Albeit heavier, is a fair trade off for durability. 

When you claim a lot of failures and then only produce one example for a now obsolete model broken by a competitive drytooler, it comes across as fearmongering.

Karl Henizewrote:

When you claim a lot of failures and then only produce one example for a now obsolete model, it comes across as fear mongering.

Technically 3 examples have been produced if you count the others. And those other two examples are of current gen Nomics and Ergos, but nice try. Luckily I'm not trying to convince you, you're free to make up your own mind. I know it's hard for some people to fathom climbing on anything other than their beloved Nomics.

Sincerely,
Gear Obsessed Dork

Back to the new BD tools for a moment.  I don't doubt at all that the new BD tools will be really strong and durable.  For example, the fusions were bomber. And I don't doubt all what the tester above said about the bolts, the pieces, and and on.

But....from what I can see in the pictures, the grip of the new BD tools has an aluminum core, with a molded oute rubber/plastic part, and this grip element is then inserted into the longer aluminum tube-like upper section of the tool.  The way that the grip is inserted and fixed into the upper tube mighrt be different from Petzl, but the basic design doesn't seem all that different.  

Which means the same failure mode could conceivaly happen.  Really, there just have to be thousands of units out in the field, tested over years, before we will know.  

For me it will all come down to the swing. If it feels right, and seem higher quality, maybe a change will be in order.