JTree Hobbit Hole Bonfires: Rangers Seeking Information

Watch the end of Braveheart, if you think you should keep building building fires! 

I’ve been climbing out there  a long time, it really saddens me to hear about this. Rangers and park administration have done an amazing job on management for over the last 1/2 century. Let’s not change the trajectory now!

Bryan Estelle

bryan Estellewrote:

Rangers and park administration have done an amazing job on management for over the last 1/2 century.

I mean… Have they? They do what they can, but I am not of the impression that there is enough budget for the park to mitigate damage or enforce crowd control efforts in the way they wish they could.

It’s not like… A finger pointing thing, but the local sentiment seems to be very different then your viewpoint.

Personally, I don’t know what to think. I just drill holes where they let me and listen to to older heads complain about who’s at fault.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Sounds like what's amazing is what they're doing within the constraints they have no control over. 

I can agree with that. The park gets a real shitty deal, especially with how fixed budgets are allocated with the federal government. It's popularity explosion has not helped it's woes.

I also think they have one of the most progressive rebolting programs in the entire country. It will be interesting to see how things develop, but I'm pretty hopeful for the new climbing management plan and it's impacts.

As far as the date you came up with for the fire ring is complete b.s. 17 years my ass. That fire ring has been there as long as I have been coming to Jtree. 34 years and to my knowledge it was constructed by Jon bacher when he was in Highschool in 1970. That would make it illegal for the park to remove as they claim. Very convenient. 

lsdclimber Elliswrote:

As far as the date you came up with for the fire ring is complete b.s. 17 years my ass. That fire ring has been there as long as I have been coming to Jtree. 34 years and to my knowledge it was constructed by Jon bacher when he was in Highschool in 1970. That would make it illegal for the park to remove as they claim. Very convenient. 

Is it illegal to remove because it was there before jtree was a national park? 

Sick! We still doing this?!

Adam Rwrote:

Is it illegal to remove because it was there before jtree was a national park? 

Certain cultural objects that exist longer than 50 years become an archeological site in national parks. That is generally the implication being made here.

For example: This law dictates that bolts more than 50 years in existence are left in the rock. Removal and replacement is actually illegal without a process of vetting by the Park Service.

Graffiti becomes historical wall paintings! Great angle! 

Although - if it is truly historical, then no one should be gathering there and destroying the site with bonfires. 

Sorry, Catch-22. Try again.

Check out the new poster on the bulletin board. 

Artem Vee wrote:

I say we organize a melee to decide it once and for all.

Dirtbags vs Rangers vs Trustfundies vs Yuppies vs Oldheads who complain about the death of dirtbag culture while also personally strangling it via supporting petty rules vs Tourons caught in the crossfire

Gumbies always win

lsdclimber Elliswrote:

As far as the date you came up with for the fire ring is complete b.s. 17 years my ass. That fire ring has been there as long as I have been coming to Jtree. 34 years and to my knowledge it was constructed by Jon bacher when he was in Highschool in 1970. That would make it illegal for the park to remove as they claim. Very convenient. 

I walked out there recently. They didn’t remove everything. There’s still a rock ring visible and a little pile of nails on the rock. 

The rock ring is still visible

There’s a little game camera pointed at the Firepit too. Did anybody get in trouble for the party? 

Sunny Climbingwrote:

 Did anybody get in trouble for the party? 

Rumor is that some people did.  If you read the climber oral history interview with the rangers posted on the park website it's pretty clear that the rangers knew about the fires and let them happen so it's really unfair that people got in trouble for going. 

Sacrificial lambs? Who polices the police?

Sunny Climbingwrote:

Did anybody get in trouble for the party? 

Yes, and there were even court cases held over the matter. The fallout between the park (law enforcement) and the climbing community has been pretty large. I won't remark on it too much, but it's being felt locally for sure. The discontinuation of the stewards program is a major casualty of the incident.

Tyler Stockdalewrote:

Yes, and there were even court cases held over the matter. The fallout between the park (law enforcement) and the climbing community has been pretty large. I won't remark on it too much, but it's being felt locally for sure. The discontinuation of the stewards program is a major casualty of the incident.

Is the fallout summarized somewhere?  Particularly, is there an account of how the discontinuation of stewards is connected to the fallout?  Thanks for any more info.

bump, also requesting more information.

Landyn Daviswrote:

Rumor is that some people did.  If you read the climber oral history interview with the rangers posted on the park website it's pretty clear that the rangers knew about the fires and let them happen so it's really unfair that people got in trouble for going. 

I found the oral history interview Landyn is referring to on the NPS website.  It's towards the end of the John Lortig interview in 2021.  I don't really know the people in this interview but I know of them and how highly they're regarded by the local climbing community.  I read this part of the interview with a profound sadness and disappointment.  Back in the day Craig Fry considered the Hobbit Hole caves one of the best Indian caves near the Hidden Valley Campground.  Such a shame that these fires may have caused damage and the rangers knew about it. 

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JL: Yeah and then, you know, somebody will drag a keg up there still to this day, have a keg up there and cookouts happen at the top of Intersection Rock a fair amount of time, in fact, I think this year there was a cookout up there and it was Halloween and people were in costume, so, you know, those kind of things still happen. Oh and then the New Year's Eve parties are legendary in Hidden Valley. Yeah, so the New Year's Eve party was always an interesting cat-and-mouse game between the rangers and, you know, “Where's the party this year? Where's it going to be held?” Because it was up in Hidden Valley, it wasn't in the campground, but it was off-site somewhere and there'd be a bonfire and, you know, plenty of people and music and noise and all those kind of things and some rangers made it a priority to try and break that party up and find out where it was and those kind of things. And Bernadette, she would know if they still go on. Bernadette didn't carry a gun. So she kind of walks the tightrope between being in the climber community and being an NPS representative, so she has a little more insight on, like, you know, the New Year's Eve parties and where they're at and all those kind of things.

SN: Bernadette, can you add on to that?

BR: Yeah, those parties definitely happen. I can't tell you exactly where, because, of course I don't know where they're happening. Or at least that's what I don't want climbers to know, that I know exactly where they're happening all the time. But we let them happen because it's fun.