Goodbye Top Rope Soloing (TRS), hello (again) to Self Lining?

If you shifted from TRS -> Self-Lining you would just be trading a semantics problem for a marketing problem.  

Example: There are 21,400 people in a TRS Facebook group ... I couldn't find a single group with the name "Self Lining." If you wanted to target the group, but kept the old name, you would only have to convince people that yours is the best book in the category. If you change the name you take on an additional challenge of educating people on Self Lining being the new term, before talking about how the book will serve their goals.

Andy asked a legit question and his logic is unassailable. Except the part about how saying solo makes you seem cooler than you are. The only people who comprehend any of this understand that whatever words follow “Top Rope” don’t matter cuz you are top roping. Which gets zero cool points. Thus self lining sounds snappier and should be adopted immediately. This is not snark. I’m serious. 

I think, Dave Mac is calling it ‘self belay top rope’. By extension one would say ‘self belay lead’.

New name will sell more books to a larger climbing audience, any climbing related book with Andy's name on it will be accepted and popular, fortune favors the bold!!!!

what a nonsensible non-issue to debate.

Fan Ywrote:

what a nonsensible non-issue to debate.

The perfect way to get people engaged on mountain project and in doing so get free advertising for a new book!

I think that its kinda like the free climbing vs. free solo... and it got carried over.

You could go weird and vauge but technically accurate, like, "free ascending"... as in free, not aid? Ascending without direct aid, but with protection.

Unless someone can find a better way that "solo" to describe climbing by yourself... we are pretty much stuck with top rope solo I think.

Desert Rock Sportswrote:

I think that its kinda like the free climbing vs. free solo... and it got carried over.

You could go weird and vauge but technically accurate, like, "free ascending"... as in free, not aid? Ascending without direct aid, but with protection.

Unless someone can find a better way that "solo" to describe climbing by yourself... we are pretty much stuck with top rope solo I think.

Good luck to anyone trying to change the lexicon of an entire culture.

So are these methods "top rope solo" since the rope isn't fixed? Are any "self-lining"?

Austin Donisanwrote:

So are these methods "top rope solo" since the rope isn't fixed?

Damn you guys are over thinking this. It's simple: top roping is usually done with a partner, thus  *any* method that enables someone to climb on a top rope, alone, is top rope soloing.

Marc801 Cwrote:

No. The very definition of 'Free solo' is ropeless.

It is, I acknowledged that. It's a poor descriptor, however, as it is possible to free climb solo with a rope. Names being poor descriptors is what this thread is about. 

Y’all have come so close I’m surprised nobody’s gone here yet, but isn’t “autobelay” the neologism we’re all searching for? It’s accurate, pithy and certain to eliminate all confusion. ;-)

Fixed Lining fits in well with Short Fixing.

Nah, self lining, gets as much cool points as bouldering being called small rock free soloing, or lead soloing called bottom rope soloing, or aiding called dual rope laddering. 

Hopefully this complete meltdown of rational discussion will make clear to the OP to simply leave the terminology alone.

Eli Helmuth wrote:

But top-roping is never really cool, is it?

I think it's cool

j mowrote:

Andy asked a legit question and his logic is unassailable. Except the part about how saying solo makes you seem cooler than you are. The only people who comprehend any of this understand that whatever words follow “Top Rope” don’t matter cuz you are top roping. Which gets zero cool points. Thus self lining sounds snappier and should be adopted immediately. This is not snark. I’m serious. 

Let's unnecessarily rename other climbing things:

Lead climbing:  especially in sport climbing, you're not "leading" anything.  By definition the route has already been bolted, climbed, etc.  Coming after all that is hardly leading.  You are going first (before your partner) though, so let's call it "First Ascending" 

 Whippers:  You don't really do much "whipping" (if done correctly with a soft catch).  The rope will come tight though, so let's call it a "Rope Stretcher" 

High Clipping:  You're way off the ground!  All clipping is high clipping!  However you almost always need to put the rope in your mouth to do this.  Let's go with "Clipping on a Bite".

Math Bertwrote:

Let's unnecessarily rename other climbing things:

Lead climbing:  especially in sport climbing, you're not "leading" anything.  By definition the route has already been bolted, climbed, etc.  Coming after all that is hardly leading.  You are going first (before your partner) though, so let's call it "First Ascending" 

Runs smack into 'first ascent' as in FA.

 Whippers:  You don't really do much "whipping" (if done correctly with a soft catch).  The rope will come tight though, so let's call it a "Rope Stretcher" 

Already taken - a very long pitch that uses all of the rope.

High Clipping:  You're way off the ground!  All clipping is high clipping!  However you almost always need to put the rope in your mouth to do this.  Let's go with "Clipping on a Bite".

This is just nonsensical, even for this nonsensical thread.

We don’t say I was out Partner top roping, so why bother with saying Solo top roping. It’s all top roping, though there is more faffing about on the solo. Only bother with the specifics if you get asked. Why anyone would care about how you top rope is beyond me. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

The term free soloing should also be updated then with the rise of lead rope solo, which is also a form of free soloing.  We have lots of terms that don't make the most sense, but they have a lot of cultural inertia and changing them would require a massive campaign, which I can only see doing if there was some really significant benefit. And ultimately there isn't really a big communication problem here, so I don't think we could change it if we wanted to. 

Lead rope solo is not a form of free solo. Free solo = without protection, by yourself.

... It's a poor descriptor, however, as it is possible to free climb solo with a rope.

Again, its not "Free Solo", it would be "Lead Rope Solo" or "Top Rope Solo", either way there are qualifiers that a rope and protection is indeed in the equation.

Its worth considering the roots of our naming conventions.

Free = without use of direct aid for progression (resting on gear at belays is acceptable)
Aid = with the use of direct aid for progression, ie. aid climbing techniques
Solo = by yourself
Rope = a rope is involved
Top Rope = Climbing something where the rope is already at the top (but typically free to move back and forth)
Lead Rope = Lead climbing something, you are bringing the rope up with you, placing and clipping protection along the way
Fixed Rope = Rope is tied off (typically at the top)
to Belay = to manage the slack in a rope

Free Solo = By yourself, no rope/protection, no direct aid for progression
Free Climbing = What we all do most of the time. Climbing, clipping protection, not using aid for direct progression, but still resting on protection at belays.
Solo Aid = direct aid for progression, by yourself, but without a rope for protection, ie what Honnold did for short sections of The Nose
Top Rope Solo = By yourself, climbing something where the rope is already at the top... you could qualify it as like, "fixed" top rope solo, I suppose.
Lead Rope Solo = By yourself, climbing something where the rope is not already at the top and you are bringing it up with you, you could qualify it as like, fixed bottom rope lead solo... but... what?! The rope is tied off at the ground (or an intermediate anchor on MP), and you are bringing the rest up with you, leading, clipping protection as you go, by yourself... Yeah, no. Lead implies you are putting the rope into pro as you go, you shouldn't need to specify "bottom"... after all, it could be a traverse, and even end up lower instead of higher, etc...
Lead Aid Rope Solo = By yourself, climbing something where the rope is not already at the top and you are bringing it up with you, using direct aid for progression

Self belayed top rope... to me makes me picture the fools who tie into one side of a top rope, put their GriGri on the belay side and then are forced to feed almost the entire length of the rope through their GriGri... While that may be technically, top rope solo, I think we can all agree that should be called something else entirely that adequately conveys the futility of doing it, maybe, "Fools TRS"... Like Fools Gold, you don't have the good stuff.

Now... belaying. When a human does it we call it belaying, when a machine does it, as in a gym, we call it an auto-belay, which also has the implication that there is a single person involved... but those have springs, hydraulics, magnets, etc involved and automatically re-wind regardless of any weight on the rope, plus they simply slow a descent, they don't hold one in place after they fall... this is unlike PCDs in TRS and LRS which function with gravity, rotational speed, and friction to actually lock up. (yes yes, tru blue, etc have a rotational component, but they slow, not fully stop and lock off)... so we can't, or should not, add "auto-belay" into this... you would need a different term. PCD...