Mammut Smart or BD Pilot?

Maybe obvious reasons isn't the best choice of words, but personally I think there is a lot to be said for why its the most common "advanced " belay device.  I think the ability to use it off the anchor as well as to rap in a pinch is important.  In addition the ability to hand it to most partners and they know how to use it is valuable.  At the end of the day I was talking about the importance of knowing a lot of devices as the situation calls for or your personal preference.  Secondly to a newer climber I would rather have them purchase the standard than something that may not be familiar or what their mentors used.  

in addition personally Id rather have a device that can be used on multi-pitch in case you want to explore that later in your career, granted you would also be fine in belaying with a passive and then hauling up a plate to belay from the top or setting up a re-direct off of your top peace.  

Lastly I have seen gyms that only accept active assist devices, personally I think that is BS but better to be prepared. 

Agreed on all points! Almost every climber I've encountered here learned to use a Grigri, so you really can't argue with the ubiquity aspect.

However I don't think the Grigri is standard everywhere. The Americas, certainly. I believe in Germany they start people off on the Smart.

I certainly felt safer handing a Smart to a newbie. Even on top rope, you cannot beat the simplicity of the device. The Grigri has almost a "black box" effect on some climbers, who conflate complexity with safety. I personally think it's a safer device to get started with, but that is my own opinion.

J Lwrote:

I ended up buying the Mammut Smart. Took it to the crag over the weekend and give it a spin, exceeded my expectations.

I jotted down some thoughts on using it vs. a GriGri

tl;dr — 

• I consider its grabbiness is a feature; its design purposefully counters at least two cases of user error with the GriGri; carabiner choice matters.
• You can lower a climber by rotating the device backwards like the Pilot. I think Mammut recommends against it because it can be dangerous in a panic situation.

Glad you’re enjoying it, but some inaccuracies in the notes you took: the GriGri was released in 1991, 1 or 2 years before the ATC. I’m not sure how much “took it by storm” but that’s subjective.

And the only way I’m aware of that Petzl promotes to use the GriGri is what I’ve always just called the shuffle. For the smart, you can use PBUS, but I typically recommend shuffling. Similarly, they have different cautions and warnings from the manufacturer, so while it’s useful to describe them as operating the same in some instances, be careful with blanket statements like that.

Hi Daniel! Thanks for keeping me honest — I've amended the article to reflect your comments.

As for the shuffle, Petzl seems to recommends three different techniques: hand-over-hand, shuffle, and PBUS. Perhaps their recommendation changed recently?

Those videos are demonstrating a reverso. They have GriGri specific videos.

edit: If you can’t find it, here it is: https://vimeo.com/80481246

J Lwrote:

Agreed on all points! Almost every climber I've encountered here learned to use a Grigri, so you really can't argue with the ubiquity aspect.

However I don't think the Grigri is standard everywhere. The Americas, certainly. I believe in Germany they start people off on the Smart.

I certainly felt safer handing a Smart to a newbie. Even on top rope, you cannot beat the simplicity of the device. The Grigri has almost a "black box" effect on some climbers, who conflate complexity with safety. I personally think it's a safer device to get started with, but that is my own opinion.

I hadn't considered a black box issue with the gri gri.  That would make a lot of sense. Also I really appreciate you for possibly calling me out and then not devolving into MP hell!  

I would like to share a recent story where I brought a friend climbing for like the first time (at gym)  He was taught my gym staff w/ the gri gri and then after watching him display some profiency and doing a couple easy climbs I started working something a little bit harder.  I ended up pumping out at the crux and then looking down he had both hands off the rope I obviously yelled down "Gavin Put your hands on the F**ing rope"  It just went to show that I really value teaching newbies or even having casuals belay me on an assited breaking device. I think familiarity is at the heart of the arguement for safety, which is what I think all belay device arguement should be about.  How safe can you be while having a reasonable amount of convience.  In other words it would be safer for a gri gri if you just slow tubed it, but that is not realistic.  Id much rather have a partner be on the device they are comfortable and I'd prefer that it's something I understand a bit ( so i can check etc) (same with when people tie in with exotic flavors of the bowline) .  An intersting case was this summer I accepted a hip belay from an oldtimer (he had been climbing at that craig since 1967) this was on a fairly mild classic 5.8 TR(all there is at this craig), I wasn't expecting to fall and was planning on downclimbing as well.  But when I was hopping on something limit I asked that he use a gri gri or at least a tuber, he complied.  

I personally think the GriGri is a terrible lead belay device for new lead belayers. It’s a guaranteed short rope all the way up the route! I’d rather have a new lead belayer belay me with an ATC versus a GriGri for this reason. 

What can be the reason for the delay, maybe can’t source longer rivets?

Anna Brownwrote:

I personally think the GriGri is a terrible lead belay device for new lead belayers. It’s a guaranteed short rope all the way up the route! I’d rather have a new lead belayer belay me with an ATC versus a GriGri for this reason. 

I don not think anything is terrible, this argument is in the margins imo.  

I think theres an important distinction here, new belayers vs new lead belayers who presumable have some level of competence at top rope.  Thoughts on the progression tr on gri gri, tr on ATC, lead on ATC, lead on GRI GRI? 

Bailey Nicholsonwrote:

I don not think anything is terrible, this argument is in the margins imo.  

I think theres an important distinction here, new belayers vs new lead belayers who presumable have some level of competence at top rope.  Thoughts on the progression tr on gri gri, tr on ATC, lead on ATC, lead on GRI GRI? 

I really don't think there needs to a progression any more. The use of assisted breaking devices has become so common that everyone should be starting on the non-mechanical ABD they want. The only place I think there could be a progression is starting with something like a smart or pilot, then moving onto a grigri once the have a good understanding of the mechanics of belaying. 

I think it comes down to the experience and competency of the instructor to be able to teach any kind of belay technique with any device in a simple and concise lesson. 

Newbies lead belaying on Grigri is short-city, agreed. You simply don't have the knowledge and experience with the device to pay out slack properly. Even now I will run into trouble paying out slack if the rope isn't flaked out just right. I guess that makes me a Grigri newb  

At least in my opinion I think newbies can short on any device.  It is an acquired skill, hell I do it myself every now and again : (  The main worry for me is the auto dropping that comes from disangaging the cam to pay out slack).  I think it a little bit harder to pay out slack on a gri gri than some of the others. If your teaching someone to lead you shouldn't expect perfect slack.  it fair to ask a newer belyaer to buy 2 50+ dollar devices plus a tube for raps and auto block?  

EDIT The other thing is once they are ready to lead they should know not to take brake hand off. Which is why I have switched my belief to having them learn with some sort of assist device.  Id much rather have a couple of bad habits then drop me to the deck.  

Not to turn this into a Grigri bashing topic, but it has been demonstrated outside of a lab setting that if you don't hold the brake side of the rope while depressing the cam, the rope will run freely. Petzl relies on that single tenet being respected (never let go of the brake side), which is sensible, but means there is no redundant aspect protecting you from user error.

I should also point out that every belay device (short of the Revo, I guess) suffers from this. If you rotate the Smart backwards without holding the brake strand, your climber will deck. Same with the *juls.

Edit: story time — when I was taught to lead belay with the Grigri, I was told to prepare for giving slack quickly by "pre-drawing" a big bight of rope with the brake hand, before hooking the index under the device, etc. It was only later that I learned that this was dangerous, since the rope will run the length of the bight freely if the leader drops, at which point the rope may be moving fast enough to burn your hand causing you to let go of the brake strand.  

I thought the gri gri cam will eventually catch if dropped.  Ie it will move to fast as long as it is attached to you.  If you are saying that it will not catch if you keep disengaging it that would make sense because you are disengaging it.  However I don't see that as to much of a problem because generally if belayer falls they aren't decompressing.  However if you fall while they are giving out slack and they panic and dont remove their hands it could be a problem.  I suppose that is true with every device except for the revo.  Might be worth some more investigation.  Keep your f*ing hand on the brake strand no matter what the device is, even auto blocking devices suffer from this as well. I really wish revos weren't so expensive they seem really cool.